learntoquestion ltq discussions

On Wednesday, assuming all goes well, you will have watched Schindler’s List. We will most likely not have heard from one of the few remaining survivors, Rena Finder (age 94), but on Thursday in class we will probably hear a bit from her on film. Rena is not well at the moment, but she is eager to receive and respond to your questions. So as part of this assignment, you are to pose at least one question for Rena.

A note: I have tremendous respect for the array of reactions that I anticipate you will have in response to the film. Some of you will be emotional while others among you will want to reflect and digest individually what you saw and heard. There is no "right" response, but I have complete respect for you and your peers as you respond to the film with maturity and sensitivity.

Now, I'd like to hear your overall reaction to the film. You are invited to take your remarks in whatever direction you wish. Know too that we will talk about the experience overall in class. Moreover, there is a boatload of literature on Oskar Schindler and the events described in the film; let me know if you would like to read some of that material.

That said, a few questions/issues I ask you to ponder and discuss in addition in a post:

• When Schindler talks to Amon Goeth, the commandant at Plaszow (played by Ralph Fiennes in the film), about being able to “pardon” people, what does he mean? What is Schindler’s underlying view of power, in your opinion? What is Goeth’s view of power?

• The film depicts innumerable terrible events, placing people in desperate and horrific situations. Some people took on roles that saved their lives; others refused to do so. Still others avoided risk, while various individuals chose to take tremendous risks to save themselves and others. We see compliant workers in this film, black market smugglers, Jews turned “Judenrat”—a police force staffed by Jews but working for the Nazis within the ghetto that could move you from the “bad” line to the “good” line, etc. People crossed plenty of moral and ethical lines in the film. Where would you draw the line? What is the line that cannot be crossed? What action can you NOT take in order to save your own life?

• What made Schindler take the actions he took? Why did he seem to “change”? Was he heroic? In other words, how and why did he shift from being a “bystander” to an “upstander”?

• At the end of the post, in a separate paragraph, pose a question for Rena Finder. Know that I’ll be copying and pasting, combining similar questions/topics and getting her to respond.

I hesitate to describe this movie as simply “good” because that doesn’t do justice to what this movie is and what it does. This movie is brutal and difficult to watch, not because it has violence or gore never before seen, but because it is based on the true history of what happened in the Holocaust, it is impossible to remove yourself and remind yourself that the movie is just fiction, because it isn’t. Everything in this film happened in the real world, and when that is taken into consideration every death is tragic as it represents the millions who actually died in the real world.

The idea that Schindler describes to Goethe of power and the ability to pardon them being the absolute power. He seems to present that power of pardon to Goethe as the power to pardon the Jewish people in the camp for their perceived failure and crimes that warrants their death. He attempts to spin this action as the ultimate power, as in that situation the Jews around Goethe know that he can end their lives at any point at a whim with no drawbacks. Schindler seemed to try to lead Goethe to the idea that letting the Jews live while impressing on them how little power and importance they had in the situation in the true power. Knowing that their lives are held by a man with no regard for them who takes pleasure in tormenting them would be the ultimate power for a man like Goethe, who seems to want to see himself as a hero. And this does play into Goethe’s worldview of power being the ability to kill at any moment. Schindler's view on power seems to be more that of money and influence, as from the beginning of the movie Schindler is attempting to enrich himself by making connections within the SS and bureaucracy.

I find it difficult to condemn the Judenrat, as condemning someone for trying to survive is a position that we as people who have experienced nothing close to what the Jews did would be unfair. They also were fairly ignorant of what they were working towards. No one outside of the higher military circles would have known what was happening at the camps, and the Judenrat may well have seen themselves as mediators trying to mitigate damage. An action by a Jew in the ghetto that would get them shot by a German soldier may instead result in a less severe outcome should a Jew be the one to have to deal with it. The idea that I would have any idea of what ethical and moral boundaries I would abide by or cross. Put in a life or death scenario, I would like to believe that I would be righteous and sacrifice myself for others, but I have no way of truly knowing what would happen.

Schindler's change as a person from the beginning of the film to his actions at the end of the film. At the beginning of the movie he is simply a businessman trying to make a profit and deciding to take advantage of desperate Jews for cheap labor. Though perhaps not as far into the nazi propaganda machine as others, he still does not have any love for them as exemplified when a worker speaks to him in his office he explodes on Stern telling him never to do that again. He had no love or connection to the Jews, but as the movie went on he began to become attached to and care about them. And as abuse of the Jews became more prominent he found himself drifting further from his party. A large shift is seen when he hoses down the train cars, which he played off as cruelty and giving them hope but in reality was his attempt to help them in any way he could. The scene of the burning bodies also prompted him to move from simply sympathy for the Jews to actually acting in order to help them.

A question for Rena:

I’m basing this question partially on a statement from someone who grew up in an area that had had a heavy Nazi concentration. Did you see or meet any former nazi’s after the war, either a member of the party or a soldier, and were they openly hostile towards you and still very outspoken against Jewish people, or apologetic and broken down by their experiences. And if you try to resettle where you had lived before the Holocaust, what was the reaction of the people around you, especially those you knew from before the war?

This film has an especially profound impact on me because it shows the complexity of this historical event. Although the film was mainly in black and white, the issues presented were not always black and white. There were not simply two groups involved: the Nazis and the Jewish prisoners. I think it was important for the film to show that although at many times there were several options for Jews, each making their role distinct, ultimately none of the options were ideal. Additionally, I was not overwhelmed by the gore itself in the film, which I was not expecting to be. What heightened the gore and brutality was the sense that this mirrored a reality for everyone who experienced the Holocaust, and it was done in the most realistic way possible.

By explaining that pardoning people who one has every justification to kill is power, Schindler shows his view of power as the ability to show restraint and compassion. It is evidently much easier to brutally punish than to spare, and the extent of one’s power is realized when one chooses to spare. Goeth’s view of power is exercising the ability to punish rather than the ability to spare. His perspective seems to be that demonstrations of brutality affirm power to oneself and the people one is in control of. Through Goeth’s actions of killing Jewish prisoners at random, he also believes in exercising the ability to punish for no good reason or justification, simply for the reason that he can.

Because of the sheer scale of horror and destruction of the Holocaust, it is hard to draw a clear line under desperate circumstances. I would first recognize that I am not only taking action for my own life, but also the lives of my loved ones if I were not already separated. I would do anything to protect them, therefore I would not take any action that would endanger them. Besides this, there is not a clear ethical line I would draw. If the opportunity was presented, I would likely join Judenrat or other roles like the role Helena had to guarantee my safety.

Schindler underwent a significant change in his motivations, at first prioritizing the success of his business, but later prioritizing the lives of the Jewish employees. Earlier on, when his accountant had mentioned the scale of violence and murder committed against the Jews, Schindler had brushed it off by saying death is a part of life, and questioned what he wanted Schindler to do about it. Schindler quickly has a change in attitude when he fully realizes the capability he has to save lives, and the urgent need to. One of the scenes that mark this change of heart is the scene of the girl in the red coat, which seems to move Schindler and make him further realize the barbarity of the situation. After this point, Schindler shows many characteristics of a hero, taking many methodical and selfless actions to guarantee the safety of the Jewish employees.

My question for Ms. Finder is, in what ways did Jewish prisoners help each other and perhaps maintain a semblance of community?

This film is a beast and I have no doubt that I will come back to rewatch. It will stick with me forever. The horrors and the deaths and the unjustifiable evil...It's also hard to fathom the true extent of the Holocaust. The film is a snippet of the actually Holocaust yet already so heavy and taxing. If we were to try to show every death, every injustice it would far surpass 3 hours. I went into the film not knowing what to expect and was actually quite confused. Why is an industrialist slave owner of the Nazi Party being honored? Now after watching I would definitely like to learn more and am looking forward to hearing about Rena Finder and the stories of other survivors.

Goeth saw power as the ability to act without repercussions. Power to him was being able shoot Jews like deer. It was the pleasure of watching them tremble and plead before he pulled the trigger. Goeth did not need an explanation or a reason and in some aspects that is power. On the other hand, Schindler saw power as the strength to do what you don't want to do. It's pardoning, forgiving, letting go, even if it feels wrong. Power is defying the rules and Schindler implies that Goeth is a weak man, who folds under every urge to kill. If he was truly powerful, he would have the willpower to pardon despite being able to kill.

It is easy for outsiders, those of us who never had to experience such circumstances, to judge and say that they would cross such moral/ethical lines. I find that ignorant and it's unfair to judge individuals who were "Judenrat" or others who decided to put themselves first. It is simply human nature to survive. In all honesty, I too would fold, and probably one of the first to die because it takes an immense amount of courage to fight for yourself, and even more for others.

I can’t really explain why or specifically what made him “change.” But I think the moment on the hilltop when he witnessed the Ghetto massacre as a bystander, something shifted. Rather seeing the Jews as merely an efficient source of labor, they became people–mothers and fathers, daughters and sons. Schindler let himself feel that sense of humanity and connection that binds all humans together. He was taken aback by the violence, however rather than turning his head away or shielding his eyes from the horrors (like the women riding with him) he recognized it. Schindler wouldn't look away and in that moment, something changed.

Ms. Finder, I can only imagine the overwhelming amount of pain and injustice you and millions of others endured. Nothing can ever replace the lives lost and mend the scars left behind, but how can, or is it even possible, for future generations to properly recognize our past and ensure that the past never becomes reality again?

Overall, this film was very emotional and powerful. For some reason, I had never really knew who Oskar Schindler was, and I didn't know that there was someone like that, that tried to save Jews from Auschwitz. Without him, there would hardly be any Jewish descendants in Poland. Also, I was curious about the little girl in the red coat. Who is she? What is her significance?

Schindler's view of power was having the "right" and justification to kill, but still not killing. This shows willpower and using his empathy towards Jewish people. Goeth's view of power is killing those who mean nothing to him. He kills innocent people, just walking on the street, minding their own business and going about their day. He doesn't think about the effect, the reasoning, or the repercussions.

Many people help each other out even when they're not supposed to, and cross lines in this movie. For example, the little boy that turned into a worker for the Nazis. When there was the liquidation in Warsaw, he was supposed to search all the buildings for Jewish stragglers. Instead, he saw some of the people he knew, and helped them hide under the stairs, and told the army that the building was ask clear. I honestly think that a line that cannot be crossed is Jews turning on each other, which to my knowledge, didn't seem to occur that often, for obvious reasons. They need to stick together when there is such horrific events happening. Even with Nazis bribing them with incentives if they give them tips on who committed certain "crimes" or actions.

I think Schindler was very heroic. I feel like there isn't that many stories on the "upstanders" in the Holocaust. In other words, the people who helped the Jews, despite the mass hysteria that was going around Nazi Germany. One example I can think of is The Book Thief, where the Hubermanns take in two children from Communist families, and a Jew that fled, hiding them, and providing for them. I think a big factor to Schindler's shift was Izaak Stern. Working with him, he learned more and more about the Jews' suffering. Also, the maid, Helen Hirsch, I also think played a big role. She told him her experience, and he saw how traumatized and anxious she was about Goeth.

Question for Rena Finder: When you were put on Schindler's List, were you also displaced to Auschwitz first, like the women in the movie, or did you go straight to Schindler's factory?

After viewing the film, I was left speechless. Seeing just a piece of the reality of this major event that we hear about described in history books was both horrifying and eye opening. I think that the film not only lets people learn more about the Holocaust, but also sheds light on the immense amount of destruction and fear that humans are able to create. There was this feeling of hopelessness throughout the entire film, even when the war was over and the Jewish workers were free, that was a direct result of all that had been taken away from the millions of victims of the Holocaust.

Goeth sees power as a weapon, saying that “control is power”. He derives power from fear by killing Jewish people nonchalantly whenever he chooses, just because he can. In the scene where Goeth is on his balcony shooting workers, including women, he couldn’t care less about the lives that he had just ended. Schindler’s views on power completely contradict Goeth’s, as he believes that power is showing mercy to those that he is allowed, even encouraged, to kill. As a member of the Nazi party, Schindler is surrounded by senseless killing of countless numbers of people, though he still shows empathy and he sacrifices for the people that allowed him to gain his wealth. Schindler “pardons” people by saying that they are essential for work in his factory, which saves them from being killed like others around them.

When I learned about Jews joining the Judenrat, my first thought was that it’s morally wrong because they were essentially turning against their own community in the hardest of times. However after thinking about it, I can understand the reasoning behind it, as it’s just self preservation. I think that especially in such a scary and confusing time, the line of morals and ethics became so blurred that in that situation no lines are being crossed. If my life were at risk, I would definitely consider it as an option, especially if I were alone. I genuinely have no idea where I would draw the line, as I can’t even imagine how it would feel to be living in those conditions. I hope that I would draw the line when saving myself would hurt many others, but I don’t know how I would react in that kind of desperation.

In the beginning of the film, Schindler is just trying to get rich. He has no intention of being a “safe haven” for Jews, he simply wants them to work in his factory for cheap labor. I think he really began to change when his eyes were opened to the injustice and brutal reality that was occurring. I think that a key moment in Schindler’s shift of thinking was when he was riding his horse, looking down on the village full of people being murdered and pushed around, and when he saw the little girl in the red coat. Hearing about a genocide versus standing there and watching it happen have completely different effects on someone, and I felt the difference while watching the film. Schindler shifts from being a “bystander” to an “upstander” when he realizes that he is actually able to help a lot of people with his power and money that many people don’t have. I believe that this is heroic because so many people would not take the opportunity that Oskar Schindler had out of fear, which is honestly pretty understandable based on the consequences that they could face. Even after the war is over and the Jews that Schindler was able to save are free, Schindler breaks down because he feels guilty for not being able to save more people, thinking that if he had not kept his car or a gold pin that he would have been able to save just a few more people. As heartbreaking as this scene was, it really shows Schindler’s heroic characteristics, as he would give anything for a few more people to be alive.

My questions for Ms. Finder:

What was your experience starting your life again after the Holocaust? How did your experiences during the Holocaust affect your perspective of the world or your life?

This film was very impactful to me because it allows us to confront and visually grasp the reality of millions of Jews in Poland to a certain degree. Getting to see the transition of the events and how Jews were increasingly belittled and murdered was not only frustrating but a concept hard to grasp. I appreciate how they focused on the names of these individuals and highlighted the experience of the children because it allows us to notice their humaneness and innocence.

When Schindler talks to Amon Goeth about being able to pardon people he highlights the power of being able to spare the lives of others. He views this as more powerful than murder because taking the lives of others inflicts fear which does not necessarily show power but is a hubristic way of presenting yourself.

It is difficult to really draw the line because we would never truly know how it was for these individuals and what they went through to make that decision of crossing a moral or ethical line to save themselves or others. It is difficult to think about how Judenrats worked knowing that they are harming their own people.

Schindler was able to have a look at some of the brutalities and murders that occurred in the camps from a third person pov. This could have influenced his thinking especially due to the connection he formed with the accountant and other Jewish workers. Nearing the ending of the movie we could see more of his upstander behavior where he made the list of workers that were then able to avoid staying in Auschwitz and survive throughout the war in his factory.

My question for Finder: What was the biggest challenge you experienced while assimilating back to a liberated life after the war.