learntoquestion ltq discussions

I think it does have a relatively positive result for society, however, I think it would be impossible to genetically modify all of the human race. With so many people in third world populations and 99% of people not being able to afford such modifications, this dream of a perfect society truly just is a dream. It might make people healthier and give people the ability to challenge modern life, but I think we would lose authentic experiences in the process, as well as humanity’s diversity. I think it sounds like a whimsical dream but the realities are more upsetting than the world we really live in.

I think I would want to be a “faith baby” because the idea of being genetically ‘superior’ to a select few, doesn’t sit well with me. I would roll the dice and consider myself in-valid, like Vincent, and refuse to resign to a lesser fate based on my own genetics. I don’t I would go to such extreme lengths of his and use another person’s identity, but I definitely stand with his principles and the idea of refusing to be lesser than having been born with a genetic disposition.

The movie offers powerful commentary on the role of discrimination in our society in addition to presenting a vivid image of the societal repercussions of eugenics. Although the main focus of this movie is on the effects of eugenics, I believe that it really touches on the greater problem of institutional prejudice. The movie inspires viewers to reflect on the discrimination existing in their own lives and society by portraying such an extreme example of it within this made-up world.

Vincent outlined the different ways that companies violate the law to discriminate against "in-valid," or those who have not undergone genetic modification, at one point in the movie that especially hit me. There are several instances of this kind of disdain for the law in our own culture today, particularly when it comes to prejudice towards women or people of color. The movie powerfully illustrates how, even outside of the setting of eugenics, the structure of our society promotes systemic prejudice and the marginalization of some people.

This raises the question of whether other social reforms are necessary before our society can use eugenics as a solely positive instrument, or rather, if eugenics can exist in our culture without having these kinds of negative societal effects.

This may be an unpopular opinion, but if I am being honest, I would prefer to be a genetically modified baby. If I had to choose a life filled with less hardship than the other, I would choose the easier life. Vincent faced a life where he was seen as less than others, and actually had to change his entire identity just to be able to gain the opportunities he wanted to have. He even gets the job he wants immediately just based on his fake DNA, a job he never would have gotten by being himself

While I would rather have this life of ease if I could choose it, I do not think that manipulating genes for the entire population is something that would be positive. First, it would not be accessible for everyone therefore gaps between social classes would drastically widen. These gaps are large enough today, it would probably be catastrophic if they are to widen much more. I understand the reasoning, maybe I would support the changing of genes to help a child avoid some sort of terrible disease or disability but overall I think that that idea is an unrealistic idea to have.

The discrimination faced by those who werent concidered genetically superior is unfair. Just because of some statistics at birth that may or may not happen, someone isn’t able to even try to attempt to perform a job? The fact that Vincent was turned away at an interview because of his genetics and was not even given a chance to show his abilities is unfair. We see that today in many different manners. People are judged off of their visual appearance during job interviews whether or not the interviewer means to or not.

I do not think that as a society, we could handle changes of genes for certain people. We can sort of see things like plastic surgery, even steroids are viewed as inherently negative and I think people would see the manipulation of genes as no different than that. There would be hatred and those who were modified would look down on those who weren't and those who are not modified would see the others as fakes.

• I do not believe that choosing genes would have a positive impact on society really at all. It is true that people may be healthier and stronger but that does not necessarily equate to a better society. Using that logic would mean that only the most healthy and strong individuals contribute to society and that is clearly false. When it comes to dealing with the challenges of modern life the people in Gattaca that were “valid” did not necessarily have it easy. The perfect example of this would be Jerome, he had perfect genes but he clearly also suffered with mental health issues like depression and addictions. Jerome threw himself in front of a car because he could not take the pressure of being the “perfect person” and not living up to those expectations. The movie just proves that no matter how much you try you can not “gene out” the person in human beings, people will always make mistakes. Lastly, if you were to have a reality like Gattaca where only the “valid” people were listened to and taken seriously, I think our society would not progress. You need different minds and point of views for a society to thrive.
• Honestly,if I had to live in the movie Gattaca I would rather be a child whose genes were genetically modified. Why would I choose the option where I am scrutinized, hated, and not given opportunities needed to succeed? It might sound selfish but obviously I would choose a life where I could get a good paying job and a spouse. It is the difference between high class and lower class in Gattaca, would I rather be a janitor like Vincent or an astronaut like “Jerome”. I also would not care at all if my parents genetically made me because that meant they really wanted to have me and wanted the absolute best for me.
• I do not know a lot about modern day eugenics but I want to make a connection to eugenics and modern day beauty standards. I think beauty standards are the modern day form of Gattaca. What are the lengths that some of us go to to fit into these standards created by society? Nose jobs, BBLs, crazy makeup trends, starving yourself. When Vincent changes to Jerome he changes his eye color, gets surgery to make his eyesight better, even has a procedure to make him taller. These are all things that I think people would do today if they could. This “perfect person” is definitely an idea today even if it is not the full extent of the movie. One scene in the movie includes a woman going up to a DNA tester after kissing a man on a date. This shocked me but then I realized we probably do something similar. Judging people based on clearly genetics or clearly looks- isn't that just tinder. Anyways back to the original question I know that a in different countries the rate of children with disabilities such as down syndrome or autism is much lower because they allow women and people who carry children the option to terminate a pregnancy when these results come back. I don't really know how to feel about this and actually I thought about it the other day when I saw a tiktok about it. Would I want to bring a child into this world knowing that it would never be independent depending on the severity of the disability. The answer is probably no. That's unfair maybe but I really wouldn't. I also would think in terms of the child would they have a good life, but Im sure that's what people in Gattaca believed, children that were not genetically mutated were living harder lives.
• This movies theme is clearly one of descrimination as Vincent describes “genoism” which is basically racism, sexism or xenophobia but based on genes. Before Vincent transforms into Jerome he is denied from most jobs except janitoring. When he has Jerome's blood he is automatically given the job as an astronaut he states that his real resume was in his cells. Jerome mentions how social class was no longer determined by the color of his skin but instead “they have discrimination down to a science”. Simply using the phrase “invalid” shows the level of descrimination, people not genetically modified were not valid to society.

If I were alive in this world, I personally would want to have been a “faith baby.” Life is all about using what you have and making something out of it. What Vincent went through is insane; I’m not even sure how he even managed to get past the urine samples for work using the straw thing. And altering his legs as well, and worrying about every little speck of dust that he leaves behind??? It takes a lot of dedication and drive to do what he did. If I were Vincent, I would want to take my chances like he did, even if it meant I had to be careful about my surroundings. I would be more proud of myself if I was able to go beyond my limits than if I had everything I could ever need.

1. In eugenics, genes that are rid of bad heritable traits, such as predisposed heart failure (as seen in the movie), are seen as good genes, and as genes that need to be passed on. This concept of how life should be procured was the central issue in Gattaca. The valuing of these “good genes” are seen in the film when Vincent’s parents are conceiving their second child, and genetically alter the child’s genes to be perfect. The parents start seeing their son, Vincent, as a lost cause, because of how long the doctors said Vincent would live for, and the job opportunities that would be available to him in the future. This society discriminates against people who are “invalid” in order to move the population towards genetically modified “valid” people, which is the whole premise of what eugenics is.
2. Because this society is now focused on cultivating humans with “valid” genes, discrimination in this movie is very prominent. If your genes are not good enough for companies to see you as a long term asset, it doesn’t matter if you have great credentials or potential. And in this movie, the detective automatically assumed that the person who murdered the director as the invalid (Vincent’s) eyelash they found in the hallway somewhere. Had Vincent’s DNA been considered “valid,” he wouldn’t have been the prime suspect of the case.

Overall, I think that genetic research and reproductive technologies should be used for genetically caused diseases. However, this technology would probably only be available to those who can afford the gene alterations, leaving most of the population without access to such technology. I think if gene alteration is only used for that, and if it is economically available to all, it is an ethical thing to do. However, people who don’t get their genes altered should still be treated with the same amount of care, equity, and respect as “valid” people. I think gene alteration can be a good thing, as long as it is not used for cosmetic purposes or to change people's quirks. As they say in biology, and as we see in society, diversity is important.

I take issue with trying to rationalize or criticize the issues presented in “dealing with the challenges of modern life.” If we are to pass judgment on the actions of those in the film, we must disregard any and all definitions of the word “modern.” I feel that any support or criticism to the concept of gene manipulation is as much a scientific question as it is a moral dilemma. Who are we to interfere with nature and its ever-lasting opposition against nurture? In my opinion, herein lies the exact issue with the film’s portrayal of a utopian society. What is nature? Who are the nurtures? In a world where we seek to eradicate individualism, one must not be surprised to find how sheepish we all really are. And I mean sheepish in every sense of the word. The mere act of genetically modifying ourselves to be better is the epitome of the fragmentation of a population’s confidence in their ability to thrive and continue to do so. For a moment, however, I must descend from the soap box and admit that I would willingly raise children whose genes have been modified. Again, I contend that such a decision bears no weight without consideration for the nurture, or environment in which the children are raised. We are all taught from a young age that certain people are born in this world with certain privileges, for better or for worse. That being said, not all of us are taught how to learn, accept, and love the differences we encounter every day in our lives. Every suit and tie we saw in the movie was worn by a person conditioned from birth to lead their lives with an innate sense of superiority and entitlement. This mindset alone is more catastrophic to the ongoings of a modern society than any genetic testing yet to be conceived by man. As we learned in the activity earlier last week, the idea of having children is an incredibly pensive task, causing many of us to think more introspectively than perhaps any of us were prepared. Understanding who we are as individuals is extremely crucial in understanding how we choose to introduce the next generation and how they can grow as individuals in an encouraging, informed, loving community.

If we are able to manipulate or give preference to certain genes in order to cultivate “good” traits and eliminate “bad” ones, it would seem like it would have a positive effect on society. However, it is not all that it seems. People can still commit crimes and get diseases and get into accidents as shown in the film Gattaca. Furthermore, people can break under the standard of having to be perfect, as displayed by Jerome Eugene Morrow. But theoretically, this would make people more capable of dealing with the challenges of modern life.

If I were alive in such a world, I would honestly prefer to have my genes modified. If I was an invalid, I would face discrimination, even though discrimination against genes was technically illegal. It wouldn’t matter how much I lied or studied or trained, I would never have the same opportunities given to valids. All they would need to get a job they wanted was their blood. Vincent had prepared so much for his interview at Gattaca, but the only interview was checking if he was a valid or an invalid. Without the facade of Jerome, he would never have gotten to the position he did. He would’ve had to continue being a janitor. However, if I was an invalid, I don’t think I would go to the lengths that Vincent did, using someone else’s identity. I don’t think I’d be able to pull it off. I think I’d get caught very easily, and there are definite risks if you get caught stealing a valid’s identity. Vincent had to constantly make sure he wasn’t leaving any of his own DNA behind and had to constantly make preparations to pass as Jerome. Even a single eyelash caused him to almost lose everything he had worked for. Additionally, if you have a high likelihood of developing a serious disease like Vincent, you could be putting yourself in more danger. Gattaca monitored the physical performance of its employees, which for Vincent could be dangerous as he’s mentioned he’s already “10,000 beats overdue”. This can be seen when he was jogging on the treadmill and his heart rate started going faster and faster. The next scene of him in the locker room seems to display evident pain, or at least discomfort, alluding to the heart disease he likely has or will develop. The process of actually stealing someone else’s identity can also be evidently painful, such as the “surgery” Vincent underwent to reach the same height as Jerome, or Eugene.

The society Vincent lived in was one built on eugenics, or genetic engineering. Genes would be modified to improve the body and thereby society as a whole, getting rid of unwanted diseases or other traits deemed unacceptable by society. However, this gave rise to a new kind of discrimination, a kind that is based on genetics, no longer race or sexuality. A hierarchy of sorts formed, with those with modified genes being innately superior to those that didn’t have modified genes. The use of genetic engineering is being used currently, albeit for minor things. But this movie does show a possible reality of what the future looks like. There are a lot of ethics that have to come into play. For example, genetic engineering is very expensive and a lot of people probably wouldn’t be able to afford it. Therefore, it might be an option only available to the rich, the elite. It also raises the question of how to determine what eugenics should be used for. There are many different viewpoints, some very prejudiced, on what traits are “good” or “bad”. There’s also morals to factor into whether or not eugenics should be used to enhance appearance and such. I think if eugenics was really an option, it would create a lot of disharmony at the very least, but at the same time, diseases could be cured or you could be born without them altogether. It could get rid of diseases that have long had no cure and alleviate those suffering from them. It could perhaps also bring down the death rate. This ongoing debate surrounding eugenics questions if eugenics should be utilized, and if so, how to accomplish that without the discrimination that may or may not come along with it.

a) The plot of this movie was closely connected to eugenics in that certain people were viewed as more biologically fit than others and therefore superior to those who were deemed less biologically fit / less genetically desirable. The fact that Eugene ultimately decides to incinerate himself with his 2nd place medal truly speaks to how deeply genetic and physical perfectionism plagued this society. Despite the fact that eugenics was able to make him a near perfect human specimen, Eugene tried to commit suidice. Even in his prime, he was in such a bad place mentally that he wanted to end his life which just speaks to the pressures societies focused on eugenics create. One of these pressures is to live up to the perfection that is your body, which Eugene directly portrays in his disdain for the 2nd place medal he received in swimming, because despite being given the genetic lottery, despite being the best he could possibly be, he didn’t receive first place. Additionally, the fact that after becoming disabled, Eugene loses his high status and place in society, to the point where his only option is to give his identity away, also speaks to how the society eugenics creates is focused on the perfect human specimen, not the unique human mind and personality. This film is a great warning of the possible dangers heading towards a society run by eugenics.

b) This film was related to discrimination because when certain aspects of ourselves: race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, disability etc., or in this case, genetics, are deemed as “less ideal,” then the people themselves who have these “inferior” qualities are viewed similarly, which is the gateway to discrimination. Putting certain traits on a pedestal perpetuates the belief that the only life worth living is one that is perfect and that life can’t be as fulfilling or meaningful if you were born “flawed.” The film shows how eugenics limits the beauty of diversity. Diversity forces people to understand and appreciate people who are different from them; if we were less diverse, diversity and our differences wouldn’t be tolerated as much because each difference would further ostracize us from society. There would be less of a need to tolerate diversity if it was rarer.

The questions raised by the film echo the questions about the justification for eugenics in that it makes you consider the morals behind valuing certain genetic and physical traits over others and manipulating unborn children to fit these values. The problem I have with the idea of genetically engineering people to fit societal expectations of perfect mental and physical health is that when certain traits are deemed desirable and superior, the value of other traits is viewed as less, making them out to be the opposite: undesirable and inferior. This idea is already present in our society in the idolization of light skin and white features so I think we need to shift away from this part of eugenics.

Having a society with all perceived good traits seems to be a net positive right? Wouldn’t everyone look their preferred way and—for more or less—be of an equal standard to the rest. Well, not exactly, and Gattaca does a great job of exploring this phenomenon. You see, people would technically be healthier, stronger, less criminal, and more capable of dealing with challenges in life. However, what about if someone unfortunately faces a setback in life—ultimately hindering their ability to succeed. Take, for example, Jerome. He was gifted with desirable genes and found great deals of success with them. That was until he got into an accident and lost the ability to use his legs. In this, he started off equal—if not above—to most others, but an experience of failure put him at a setback and large scale disadvantage. Now, regarding our ideal society, if everyone in society were comprised of “good” genes, that would be a relative success; that is until one of them happens to face an accident so crucial that it limits any sort of future success because they are deemed on the same “level” as those with perfectly good genes and conditions. Taking a step back, creating a society that mimics the ideal situation may slowly shape into a mundane and repetitive world. With everyone on an equal level, there is evidently no diversity and differences of experiences, consequently limiting our understanding of life and the true hardships it can bring. Additionally, the off chance of someone born without any desirable traits may result in a case of identity theft in order for them to find success.

Despite what I just said above, I would likely prefer to be a genetically modified baby over a “faith” baby if the decision came down to it. I know this is very hypocritical of me just criticizing this very same idea, but Vincent serves as a great portrayal of this. In life, I wouldn’t ever want to be set at a disadvantage because of the way I look or because of the genes within me (saying this is ironic as I read it over again…). Vincent had dreams and aspirations of traveling into space, but knew he could never fully obtain them simply because of something he was born with. By putting on a false identity, he could finally be deemed “normal enough” by society and live his dreams into reality. This kinda defeats a big aspect of life—x, that it—and I would want myself and my kids to avoid discrimination or restrictions in life because of the way they were born. Regarding the question of if I would be willing to go the lengths Vincent did by using another person’s identity: short answer, no. I don’t think I could possibly put myself through the stress of constantly being someone else than who I actually was. Not only is this dangerous in and of itself, but also opens up so many possibilities for trouble. Like the events that took place in the film, Jerome had to cover for Vincent so many times and Vincent was often so close to getting his cover blown. I definitely wouldn’t be able to hide my DNA so carefully the same way Vincent did. Because of that and the stress factor of never being able to truly be myself, I could never successfully use another person’s identity. Overall, I would choose to be a genetically modified baby, but if the choice comes down to it, I would certainly not choose to put on another person’s identity to find success; instead, I would play the chance card by being a “faith” baby.

The society Vincent lives in is one largely defined by eugenics. Gattaca highlights the question of whether engineering certain genetics is moral or not. In a pretty direct manner, it establishes a hierarchy among people. Sitting atop are the people whose traits are deemed superior than the rest, followed by those who have desirable traits, then finally sitting at the bottom are all of those who are genetically modified (otherwise the “faith” babies). In addition, it becomes evident in the film that changing eugenics is an expensive process. This creates the division of those who can afford it and not—a choice separated by socioeconomic classes. Within this exists discrimination. People who don’t earn enough money won’t be able to afford genetically engineered eugenics, thus putting them at a disadvantage against the rest of society and setting them up for failure. Even in this ideal world, society still discriminates. Just a quick scan of someone’s DNA can scare people away because they know the real you. Because of this, Gattaca ultimately serves as a critique for a society that is composed of people with all desirable traits.

Eugenics is always a very difficult topic to discuss because we don't know what “perfect” is. Yes obviously being tall, not having a disease, and having a long predicted lifespan is our idea of perfection, but is it true? And if everyone was to say “perfect” how would we ever find new things or have people try things different ways. The prime example for this was the two scenes where Vincent and Anton have a swimming race. When they were kids and when they were adults of course Anton is supposed to win like usual but he doesn’t and Vincent has to end up saving him. You’d think the person who was “perfect” would win every time right? Also my favorite quote of the movie is when Uma Therman’s character Irene was talking about the piano player with six fingers and said, “Well you can only play that piece with 6 fingers' '. Implying that you had to be “imperfect” to do such amazing things and that even the degenerates could make something beautiful like music. Also when the real Jerome shows Vincent his silver medal. He was supposed to get first place because he is “perfect” but doesn’t and for his whole life is reminded that he came in second when he was never supposed to. It was very powerful that he wore it when he died because in a way he came in second to Vincent who was a degenerate and “beat” him in life by becoming someone who made it on the Gattaca. So the question is hard to answer. Yes, making everyone have the “perfect” genes sounds great, but how do we measure “perfect” and know that they are capable of achieving everything that an “imperfect” person couldn’t?

I would definitely choose to be a baby who has been modified just simply by the fact that I wouldn't be held back by anything. Obviously you would chose the path to life that creates the most opportunity for you and you can’t be denied anything just because of who you are. Are Vincent's parents wrong for bringing him into the world with this “disadvantage”? That is a question I was asking myself the whole movie. I am still not sure of the answer and I would definitely be willing to be faith baby if that guaranteed I would be able to achieve things unachievable by the modified people. I would go to the same lengths Vincent did even though changing your whole identity and constantly having to be prepared for a surprise D.N.A test is insanely stressful and takes away your humanity. I would be willing to do it just to prove the point that there is no “perfect”.

I thought this was an extremely interesting movie for a multitude of reasons. For one, regarding eugenics, it didn’t include class or race on the question of a “superior” person. When eugenics was popular, that’s all it was about. It was deemed that the white people were racially superior, and no one else could ever amount to that. In this movie, it all depends on genes––and genes that make sense. Just like we were talking about in class, if it was even remotely possible to eliminate all of the “bad,” like disease or mental illness, or disabilities––why would we not do it?

Nevertheless, in Gattaca, they discriminated in a totally different way. If someone was born the “natural” way, the only way they could get ahead in life was if they were a janitor, like Vincent, or something similar to that. Any “difficult” job was reserved for the genetically superior, and the “de-gene-erates” were left behind. I don’t know if I necessarily agree with this… if everyone was forced to have genetically superior children, then I would agree with that because everyone would have similar opportunities––you’re getting the best genes out of two parents’ gene pools.

If I had to choose the best way for my child to have the best life (in that society), I would prefer a genetically modified baby (that sounds so creepy). Yet, it would contribute to rising inequalities and discrimination in that specific society when people have natural births vs “scientific” births. It reminds me of one part of the movie where Vincent said that it didn’t matter how perfect his test scores were because he didn’t have the genes to go along with it. This is so similar to the ridiculous testing that people had to do back then (like the one we did in class), although in their case, it didn’t matter if their test scores were perfect if they were a different race/class.

It was really ridiculous and overwhelming how obsessed people were with genes, and scary how accessible it was to get a gene reading. For example, there’s one part of the movie that really shocked me: a woman had her lips swabbed after a kiss to get the person’s DNA. WHAT? If I truly had a dream and it was inaccessible to me, I might go to the lengths that Vincent went through… but me now? I would never. He was working in a huge government “corporation” or whatever it was that required DNA checks all the time. I would be extremely anxious all the time and would not be able to go through with it.

Despite everything I discussed, I truly believe that eugenics in this society can never be “valid.” By that I mean, the only way that genetically superior people can be created, is if we really start from scratch––and even then I wouldn’t know how people would go about that. If genetically superior babies were created, then everyone now (all of us) would have fewer opportunities just like in the movie. It’s a really strange subject to talk about, but I just don’t think that can ever be a thing without discrimination.