learntoquestion ltq discussions

While I think desegregation of schools in Boston was absolutely necessary, I think that busing wasn't the best way to handle it. Young kids were forced to endure so much hate and violence against them for simply going to school, and that wasn't fair to them. That's not at all to say that being left with underfunded educations were the better option, but I wish there was a way to get more money and teachers to the students without kids facing harm. It was so incredibly clear to see that far too little thought was put into the logistics of the operation. The level of disorganization was unbelievable and inexcusable. They knew the dangers of busing- they purposefully didn't involve East Boston because of the chance someone would blow up the tunnel. I mean, what the hell? Why are kids going to school such an abhorrent concept? Now even Thankfully, Bostonians did commit domestic terrorism- oh no they harassed people on the streets and burned down their homes, forcing them to move away. This sounds f*****g absurd- and that's because it is. I cannot imagine going to school in this environment, and have so much respect for the kids that did. Nothing about what those kids had to go through was tolerable. Even if, let's say (like Sal's mother) you didn't like the idea of your kid being taken to a completely new school in a completely different neighborhood, the harassment of black people- of black children is in no way shape or form the answer; never has, never will. Yet we still see the visible effects of the desegregation era in modern Boston. The number of students in the Boston Public School system has never really recovered back to what it used to be. This is result of the white flight that took place during this time, but it wasn't just white families that moved. While white families fled to the suburbs voluntarily, many black families were pushed out of their homes into other neighborhoods as a result of the harassment they faced from their own neighbors. Boston has the reputation as the one of the most racist cities in America, and it's not hard to see why.

Originally posted by FlyingCelestialDragon on October 27, 2022 16:55

The desegregation of Boston public schools did not justify busing. It was necessary for the desegregation of schools because of the negligence and unfairness of schools in the Black community. Overall desegregation of schools was a worthy goal since it opened a new pathway for Black children and their education. But the busing situation was not the best step for reinforcing the desegregation. The busing led to many more problems and created a larger barrier to desegregation. I think change did need to happen in the Boston Public Schools but it should not have started with busing first. Instead, I think the schools in the Black community should get funded with better materials and teachers. With this, these schools could be on somewhat the same level as the schools in the White community. Additionally, they should break down the housing barriers where one community would live in a specific area. If I went to school in the environment of 1974-1975, I don’t think my parents would let me go, since it would be too dangerous. I don’t think there would be anything tolerable about it. The most visible effect today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975 is that Boston is called America’s most racist city and no matter what we do now, the name won’t go away.

While I agree that funding was a big issue, the problem also lies in where that funding came from. Since schools get a lot of their funding from property taxes, black neighborhoods are placed at a disadvantage as a result of redlining- so do you think BPS or the state should've stepped up?

This is a tricky question to answer because on one hand forcing kids to go to a different school than they had been going to is not favorable on the other it does complete the task of desegregation. If they slipped in the diversity quota that had to be met and enforced it by taxing schools that didn't meet it would have been a better idea. Along with addressing the problems that are in the neighbors that are leading to the low diversity rather than just putting kids in the schools without any preface.

Yes, it is good for people to not just see another "group" on tv and become indoctrinated with a certain idea of the group. Along with that segregation oftentimes leads to inequalities in all sorts of areas so it is best that we don't have it in our schools too.

Even though busing wasn't the greatest action taken it was a necessary one. You need to get your foot in the door aka break down the Un diverse schools a least a little bit to show that desegregation isn't bad. It was a move that wouldn't have happened under Judge Garrity and need extra prompting.

It would be very difficult for me to imagine myself in that place. I would have liked to believe that I wasn't one of the racists that were throwing stones at the bus or throwing a malataf cocktail at a friend who has eaten at my house. But I can't say that and it would be very ignorant to believe I would be the one exception to the "rule" the same way it would be ignorant to say you would be a racist if you grew up in the deep south during the civil war. So much of your belief is manipulated by the powers that be, you always have to look for both sides, and to see who gains a loses so much of bigotry is just a ploy from the rich to keep the masses entertained. We see this with the Bulgers drug trade and the boom that was a result of all the kids leaving school due to the "problem" with busing. There is no way of knowing how I would have felt or acted be so much of it is affected by my family and the people around me. We can see the affects of busing even though the job isn't finished the schools are much more diverse now compared to what they were 50 years ago.

Originally posted by Babybackribs on October 26, 2022 19:36

Desegregating the Boston Public schools system was necessary means to bringing about economic equality throughout Boston. However busing children to different parts of the city, was one of the worse ways the government could have handled it. The main problem with busing was that the state was divided on the whether or not it was necessary to provide lower income neighborhoods with the same level of education as other children from wealthier communities. With this in-cohesion, especially in the public school committee, came protest from the higher income neighborhoods who left like their rights were being taken away from them. Due to the fact that they were split, the governments only option was to rush out a bill granting black and colored students, the opportunity to go to school in area with good funding, and thus good education, like South Boston. It's hard to say whether or not Judge garrity had very many options because he does not control the wealth gaps in these neighborhoods, nor can he do anything to create new schools in Roxbury with good teachers and lots of supplies. The atmosphere and environment at these schools could have been very tense as there was a war between races going outside while students were trying to learn. I believe this intensity was also exemplified by the parents of the children, as most of us know we do tend to gravitate towards how are parents think and act because we were raised upon those principles. One the key visible affects of the desegregation era can be seen in the countries perception of Boston as the most racist towns in America. It also begins to pose the question of how the gentrification of neighborhoods like Forest hills, East Boston, and Back Bay will further segregate our city and lead to more desegregation efforts (new zip code system for exam schools).

I think your take on the desegregation changing econmics was very intresting

Originally posted by autumnpeaches on October 27, 2022 09:40

The ends of desegregating Boston public schools did justify the means of busing. I mean, look at us now, in at least every school we have some form of diversity. I know that busing created a lot of problems, including protests, fights, students dropping out, and even people getting evicted from their homes. However, we should blame this on the racist white people who didn’t want their kids to go to school with black people instead of blaming it on busing and desegregation itself. I admit, having your child go to a school outside of your neighborhood, especially a low-funded school, is not easy to swallow. Yet, this also brings light to the disparity between black schools and white schools, and instead of getting mad at the school system for “busing”, they should’ve focused on funding these schools as well.

That’s why I believe that desegregation was a worthy goal. It was obvious that schools that had the majority of black kids or kids of color were not properly funded and did not have the same level of education as white-majority schools. If we left it as it is fifty years ago, nothing would’ve changed. While it’s true that middle-class black people could’ve had a better education that’s on par with some white people, what about the other poor black children that couldn’t afford this? At the same time, it’s also not just black and white, Hispanic and Asian communities also had a hard time with busing, but not one of them had a major outrage as white people did. It all ties back to racism. In the end, it’s not “busing” or “desegregation” that burned down Robert Lewis Jr.’s house, it was his white friend, egged on by his other white classmates.

One solution that could’ve remedied this whole situation was providing funding for the schools in black neighborhoods. Most white parents were angry because they did not want their children to be in schools that were “bad”, so the best solution was to make these schools “better”. I also think they should have done better to address the racism. The North has been known to be more “tolerant” and “open-minded” than the South for centuries, yet Boston is protesting desegregation. What happened to equality for all? There’s also that racist BPS Superintendent, Louise Day Hicks, whose sons went to a private school yet she thinks she has an opinion on public schools. Public school literally meant “for the public”, aka anyone can attend, so why is she trying to bar black children from attending white public schools? They definitely should’ve diminished her power by some means since she was the person who was riling up the majority of the white parents.

If I was in school in 1974-1975 and I got bused somewhere beyond my community, there’s an 80% chance that I would’ve experienced racism, assuming that I’m a grown-up kid that is. I think that middle schoolers/high schoolers experienced a lot more conflicts compared to elementary schoolers. In the essays written by 6th graders at the Holmes Elementary School, they mainly talked about the parties they had, the field trips they went on, and how they were excited for the next school year. On the other hand, high schoolers in South Boston were brawling with one another every single day, and black students even had to deal with the mob standing wait outside. This shows how racism is taught. Little kids didn’t care about the “race” of their new friends, they got along just fine. High schoolers, who were older, were affected by their parents’ mindsets. If I was a student in the desegregation era, I’d rather just be a kid, I can’t fight and I sure as hell can’t deal with racists throwing rocks at me.

The most visible effect of desegregation today would be the increase in diversity. For example, Boston Latin Academy. If we pulled up a chart of the student body now, it would be around 25% black, 25% white, 25% Asian, 25% Hispanic, and others. Boston Latin School is less diverse. I remember it was a majority white and Asian before 2022, but the diversity of today’s sixie class and 8th graders have gotten a lot better. If there was never desegregation and no busing, I’m willing to bet that BLS and BLA would’ve been at least 80% white today and 20% other. One reason that BLA is so much more diverse than BLS is because it’s located in Dorchester, a predominantly black/Hispanic community with some Asians living there too. On the other hand, BLS is very far from Dorchester and it’s closer to South Boston and Back Bay, which are predominantly white. However, we are making progress compared to the late 1900’s, and that’s all that matters.

I agree with the way that you talked about Louise Day Hicks. The fact that she wasn't a parent of children in the system is alarming because how can someone make such personal comments on something that they have no personal relation to. The school system is public for a reason-- it's supposed to represent the public, that is, the entirety of the Boston community. If schools don't reflect this in their demographics and quality, then are they even public or is that title just for show?

In order for the US to change for the better we had to desegregate the schools; however, there could have been a better alternative instead of busing, instead of rushing into things. The kids were suddenly switching schools with each other and put into neighborhoods, and towns where they had no familiarity, and with no one to protect them when they are there. It was a dangerous, and sudden change with many possibilities, but I still consider it worthy. Before desegregation, there were all-black and all-white schools, and this act forced them to mix. Even though this started off poorly with many protests against these acts, it sped things up. If this action didn't take place then the schools could still be segregated, and the neighborhoods still are split up. Also, there were many schools in black neighborhoods that didn't have enough funds to properly teach their students, but because of this, they were allowed to get the same education as each other, and not be limited by their education when they were older. However, I do believe that even though it was overall a good choice, it still stressed out the students going to school(mostly the black students), and left them scared to go to school. I personally would be scared to go to school at the time if I was a black student because it was much scarier for them. Something tolerable would be that the people around me would be going through the same thing so I wasn't alone when transferring. Something intolerable would be the white parents. They constantly protested outside of the schools not letting the black kids leave, and having a peaceful school life. The most visible effects of desegregation are the perceptions towards Boston from around the world, as the worlds most racist city, which is due to the riots of the busing.

Originally posted by SillyGoblinMan178 on October 26, 2022 09:22

Desegregating the Boston Public School system is something that absolutely had to happen, but busing was far from the ideal way of handling it. The main problem with busing was how sudden the change was. Out of nowhere, hundreds of Boston children were now going to new schools in neighborhoods they may have never even been in, all because of a court order. Granted, this court order was extremely justified; for years, schools in historically black neighborhoods had been underfunded and understaffed, leading to black students having a noticeably worse education than white students. Something had to change, but busing didn't get to the root of the problem. Instead of just putting black students in better funded white schools, the city should have improved the conditions of black schools and tear down systemic housing barriers to make moving to other neighborhoods more feasible for black families. I think that most going to school during the 1974-1975 school year would have a lot of fear and anxiety about going to school, but only because of the riots. I don't think that most teenagers would care that much about integration after a week or so of school, although some could definitely be influenced by their parents if they have hateful ideologies. The most visible effect of the desegregation era of 1974-1975 is Boston's reputation as America's "most racist city." It took twenty years after Brown v. The Board of Education for us to start integration, and when we did there were riots all across the city.

I find it very bad how quickly the government implanted the busing system, and desegregation without properly thinking of better solutions because it caused problems for the kids going to school, and caused riots the government wasn't fully prepared for.

I believe that the ends did justify the means. The whole idea of desegregating BPS used busing as a catalyst to do it. Desegregation was definitely a worthy goal. It was a necessary evil to battle and the hypocrisy with "(racial issues) in the cradle of liberty", stated by Matthew Delmont from "The Lasting Legacy of the Boston Busing Crisis". The people of Boston strayed so far from the status quo, so getting back to the standard was definitely a worthy goal. Change definitely needed to happen. The injustices described in "Whitey Bulger, Boston Busing, and Southie's Lost Generation" written by Michael Patrick MacDonald mentions how white students got more funding per students compared to black students. This wasn't morally sound in addition to Whitey Bulger's rampage against busing. I couldn't really imagine going to school in 1974 because it's so different from what it is today. I feel like nearly everything would be tolerated given the nature of the busing situation. Very little would have been considered intolerable. The most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974 is probably in our schools. From "History Rolled in on a Yellow School Bus" by Meghan E. Irons, she interviewed Phyllis Ellison. It focused on taking the bus from Roxbury to South Boston High. Even though she wasn't fearful of anything, her mother was. Acts of violence like stoning don't happen anymore. This is where desegregation was most apparent.

Originally posted by green64 on October 27, 2022 20:57

This is a tricky question to answer because on one hand forcing kids to go to a different school than they had been going to is not favorable on the other it does complete the task of desegregation. If they slipped in the diversity quota that had to be met and enforced it by taxing schools that didn't meet it would have been a better idea. Along with addressing the problems that are in the neighbors that are leading to the low diversity rather than just putting kids in the schools without any preface.

Yes, it is good for people to not just see another "group" on tv and become indoctrinated with a certain idea of the group. Along with that segregation oftentimes leads to inequalities in all sorts of areas so it is best that we don't have it in our schools too.

Even though busing wasn't the greatest action taken it was a necessary one. You need to get your foot in the door aka break down the Un diverse schools a least a little bit to show that desegregation isn't bad. It was a move that wouldn't have happened under Judge Garrity and need extra prompting.

It would be very difficult for me to imagine myself in that place. I would have liked to believe that I wasn't one of the racists that were throwing stones at the bus or throwing a malataf cocktail at a friend who has eaten at my house. But I can't say that and it would be very ignorant to believe I would be the one exception to the "rule" the same way it would be ignorant to say you would be a racist if you grew up in the deep south during the civil war. So much of your belief is manipulated by the powers that be, you always have to look for both sides, and to see who gains a loses so much of bigotry is just a ploy from the rich to keep the masses entertained. We see this with the Bulgers drug trade and the boom that was a result of all the kids leaving school due to the "problem" with busing. There is no way of knowing how I would have felt or acted be so much of it is affected by my family and the people around me. We can see the affects of busing even though the job isn't finished the schools are much more diverse now compared to what they were 50 years ago.

I agree with you around the topic of finding it hard to be in that position in 1974. It's impossible to know how any of us may have acted because the culture and social norms were very different compared to now.

Desegregation in Boston schools was very necessary, but busing was probably not the best idea to achieve the goal. The schools in neighborhoods that were predominately black were underfunded and overcrowded, while the schools in white neighborhoods were well funded. The Boston School Committee did not want to believe that the different schools were differently funded, and the schools in black neighborhoods were underfunded, even with evidence. A better solution for desegregating schools in Boston could have been to better fund the schools that were lacking materials and teachers, instead of busing black students to white neighborhood schools. The black students had started their education in schools that couldn't give them as good of an education as they could get in a white school, so when they were bused, their levels of education would be different because they had a lack of materials and less experienced teachers in their previous schools, so they would fall behind, further adding onto stereotypes. The busing caused people to react in a way that would have been very different than if the transition was in a more moderate pace. Some white people were also pressured into acting like the majority of the other white people, like when Molotov cocktails were thrown into homes, young people were pressured into participating, which furthered the issue or how black people were treated.

Desegregating the system is a problem that should've happened way before and even now the problem is still here, and if anything there should've also been a more organized way of going through this although we all knew that this process was nowhere from easygoing but nevertheless it had to happen. Desegregation will always be a worthy goal as it connects to the American Dream where people of all races come for the opportunity. If I was in school during the environment of 1974-1975 I would probably take the name calling but if they threw eggs and glass at me I would probably never want to go back to school again because I would feel like I wasn't accepted at my own school it would build rage and fear in me at the same time. The Black kids were able to keep their rage under control through the toxic environment. The most visible effect of the desegregation era is how all the rich white parents would have their sons attend very nice private schools rather than the perfectly good school across the street just because it is a public school another one would be how racist some kids are in today's age.

Originally posted by johndoe on October 27, 2022 19:13

The ends most certainly did not justify the means. There was so much unnecessary violence and hate for the simple reason that they put busing into effect.

Desegregation was a very worthy goal. It is crucial to the well functioning of a community.

Change needed to happen. The levels of racism were completely intolerable, and seemingly nothing could fix it. However, this was not the way for schools to go about it. I could not tell you what the ideal solution may or may not be, but I know that this could've been handled in a better way than causing fear and terror into people's hearts.

I cannot imagine having to go into a such a hostile environment like that every single day. I think that almost nothing would be tolerable, and that I, even as a white male, would be on edge every time I stepped foot in the building. I think that the intolerable would have been the violence and the slurs, and I think that everything else would seem very minuscule in the moment.

I think the most visual effect is the amount of racial divide in BPS schools. We learned that after the busing incident, white children were being taken out of Boston public schooling to be put into private schools, and they never returned. This completely effects the racial divide we have in our school today, because many parents who go through private education also put their child into private education.

I agree that the unnecessary violence was because of how racist Boston is which will probably not change for a long time.