learntoquestion ltq discussions

Readings: Read at least 3 of these 6 (your choice as to which ones you read, though you are certainly welcome to read all)

Desegregating the Boston Public School system is something that absolutely had to happen, but busing was far from the ideal way of handling it. The main problem with busing was how sudden the change was. Out of nowhere, hundreds of Boston children were now going to new schools in neighborhoods they may have never even been in, all because of a court order. Granted, this court order was extremely justified; for years, schools in historically black neighborhoods had been underfunded and understaffed, leading to black students having a noticeably worse education than white students. Something had to change, but busing didn't get to the root of the problem. Instead of just putting black students in better funded white schools, the city should have improved the conditions of black schools and tear down systemic housing barriers to make moving to other neighborhoods more feasible for black families. I think that most going to school during the 1974-1975 school year would have a lot of fear and anxiety about going to school, but only because of the riots. I don't think that most teenagers would care that much about integration after a week or so of school, although some could definitely be influenced by their parents if they have hateful ideologies. The most visible effect of the desegregation era of 1974-1975 is Boston's reputation as America's "most racist city." It took twenty years after Brown v. The Board of Education for us to start integration, and when we did there were riots all across the city.

Desegregating the Boston Public schools system was necessary means to bringing about economic equality throughout Boston. However busing children to different parts of the city, was one of the worse ways the government could have handled it. The main problem with busing was that the state was divided on the whether or not it was necessary to provide lower income neighborhoods with the same level of education as other children from wealthier communities. With this in-cohesion, especially in the public school committee, came protest from the higher income neighborhoods who left like their rights were being taken away from them. Due to the fact that they were split, the governments only option was to rush out a bill granting black and colored students, the opportunity to go to school in area with good funding, and thus good education, like South Boston. It's hard to say whether or not Judge garrity had very many options because he does not control the wealth gaps in these neighborhoods, nor can he do anything to create new schools in Roxbury with good teachers and lots of supplies. The atmosphere and environment at these schools could have been very tense as there was a war between races going outside while students were trying to learn. I believe this intensity was also exemplified by the parents of the children, as most of us know we do tend to gravitate towards how are parents think and act because we were raised upon those principles. One the key visible affects of the desegregation era can be seen in the countries perception of Boston as the most racist towns in America. It also begins to pose the question of how the gentrification of neighborhoods like Forest hills, East Boston, and Back Bay will further segregate our city and lead to more desegregation efforts (new zip code system for exam schools).

Originally posted by SillyGoblinMan178 on October 26, 2022 09:22

Desegregating the Boston Public School system is something that absolutely had to happen, but busing was far from the ideal way of handling it. The main problem with busing was how sudden the change was. Out of nowhere, hundreds of Boston children were now going to new schools in neighborhoods they may have never even been in, all because of a court order. Granted, this court order was extremely justified; for years, schools in historically black neighborhoods had been underfunded and understaffed, leading to black students having a noticeably worse education than white students. Something had to change, but busing didn't get to the root of the problem. Instead of just putting black students in better funded white schools, the city should have improved the conditions of black schools and tear down systemic housing barriers to make moving to other neighborhoods more feasible for black families. I think that most going to school during the 1974-1975 school year would have a lot of fear and anxiety about going to school, but only because of the riots. I don't think that most teenagers would care that much about integration after a week or so of school, although some could definitely be influenced by their parents if they have hateful ideologies. The most visible effect of the desegregation era of 1974-1975 is Boston's reputation as America's "most racist city." It took twenty years after Brown v. The Board of Education for us to start integration, and when we did there were riots all across the city.

It is really interesting why they just immediately implemented this busing system. It seemed very disorganized.

Segregation in Boston was clearly a large issue that needed to be and is still not fully resolved. However, busing students across neighborhoods in a disorganized manner was far from the solution. It is hard to say that there was a clear solution that would desegregate Boston smoothly, but the conflict that arose from busing ended up working against the original goal. Desegregation was a worthy goal and still is. As long as there is segregation in the city, certain neighborhoods and communities will never receive equal access to resources and opportunities as their counterparts.

I think that change had to happen in public schools, but I believe that it needed to undergo a different process than what Judge Garrity utilized, over a more gradual period of time, to reduce conflict. Busing was too sudden for many white families to tolerate, and boycotts immediately halted the effectiveness of the plan and intensified feelings of white superiority over blacks. I think that a more viable plan would be to first significantly improve the schools that black students were attending, and then after the education has leveled out, to start a more organized system of mobilizing students from one school to another.

After seeing video footage and reading about the environment I can imagine how going to school may have felt during that time. I would have had an extremely hard time tolerating the violence and racist remarks and probably would have had trouble focusing on the importance of going to school and desegregating the schools. I think I would have been able to tolerate some verbal abuse but tolerating violence is a much harder task. It’s very impressive how the black students were able to keep their composure while going through those crowds of malicious white people.

I think the most visible effects today of the desegregation era is the segregation of public schools. After this era, many white families moved or transferred their children to private institutions and what was meant to desegregate schools really only seemed to add to a divide. In the article by Farah Stockman, a statistic is given that states that 48% of blacks do not believe that they will achieve racial equality in their lifetime, or ever, and that half of whites believe that equality has already been won. I think this is an extremely important piece of information to understand. Many white people are given the false notion that issues like segregation and even racism in general are way in the past, but by taking a more objective look at our societies and even by simply asking those that have personal experience when it comes to these issues, it becomes evident that none of these issues were ever truly resolved, that they all still exist in our present world simply labeled in new ways.

Originally posted by SillyGoblinMan178 on October 26, 2022 09:22

Desegregating the Boston Public School system is something that absolutely had to happen, but busing was far from the ideal way of handling it. The main problem with busing was how sudden the change was. Out of nowhere, hundreds of Boston children were now going to new schools in neighborhoods they may have never even been in, all because of a court order. Granted, this court order was extremely justified; for years, schools in historically black neighborhoods had been underfunded and understaffed, leading to black students having a noticeably worse education than white students. Something had to change, but busing didn't get to the root of the problem. Instead of just putting black students in better funded white schools, the city should have improved the conditions of black schools and tear down systemic housing barriers to make moving to other neighborhoods more feasible for black families. I think that most going to school during the 1974-1975 school year would have a lot of fear and anxiety about going to school, but only because of the riots. I don't think that most teenagers would care that much about integration after a week or so of school, although some could definitely be influenced by their parents if they have hateful ideologies. The most visible effect of the desegregation era of 1974-1975 is Boston's reputation as America's "most racist city." It took twenty years after Brown v. The Board of Education for us to start integration, and when we did there were riots all across the city.

I agree with the idea of first better funding black schools and tearing down housing barriers. The busing system clearly was not fully thought out before it was implemented.

Originally posted by Babybackribs on October 26, 2022 19:36

Desegregating the Boston Public schools system was necessary means to bringing about economic equality throughout Boston. However busing children to different parts of the city, was one of the worse ways the government could have handled it. The main problem with busing was that the state was divided on the whether or not it was necessary to provide lower income neighborhoods with the same level of education as other children from wealthier communities. With this in-cohesion, especially in the public school committee, came protest from the higher income neighborhoods who left like their rights were being taken away from them. Due to the fact that they were split, the governments only option was to rush out a bill granting black and colored students, the opportunity to go to school in area with good funding, and thus good education, like South Boston. It's hard to say whether or not Judge garrity had very many options because he does not control the wealth gaps in these neighborhoods, nor can he do anything to create new schools in Roxbury with good teachers and lots of supplies. The atmosphere and environment at these schools could have been very tense as there was a war between races going outside while students were trying to learn. I believe this intensity was also exemplified by the parents of the children, as most of us know we do tend to gravitate towards how are parents think and act because we were raised upon those principles. One the key visible affects of the desegregation era can be seen in the countries perception of Boston as the most racist towns in America. It also begins to pose the question of how the gentrification of neighborhoods like Forest hills, East Boston, and Back Bay will further segregate our city and lead to more desegregation efforts (new zip code system for exam schools).

I think it's awful how easily hateful ideology spread throughout Southie during this time, especially between parents and children.

The desegregation of Boston public schools did not justify busing. It was necessary for the desegregation of schools because of the negligence and unfairness of schools in the Black community. Overall desegregation of schools was a worthy goal since it opened a new pathway for Black children and their education. But the busing situation was not the best step for reinforcing the desegregation. The busing led to many more problems and created a larger barrier to desegregation. I think change did need to happen in the Boston Public Schools but it should not have started with busing first. Instead, I think the schools in the Black community should get funded with better materials and teachers. With this, these schools could be on somewhat the same level as the schools in the White community. Additionally, they should break down the housing barriers where one community would live in a specific area. If I went to school in the environment of 1974-1975, I don’t think my parents would let me go, since it would be too dangerous. I don’t think there would be anything tolerable about it. The most visible effect today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975 is that Boston is called America’s most racist city and no matter what we do now, the name won’t go away.

Yes, the ends did justify the means in my eyes because Boston is a racist city and when busing was introduced it was very controversial but in the end, even though Boston isnt perfect, it helped to segregate our city and school. Although it could have gone smoother in some ways like not having the change be so drastic and holding more people accountable for their actions, having forced integration was one way about starting to address the segregation in our city. As said in the article “Did busing slow Boston’s desegregation?”, this is something that “we just try to forget”. Which seems to be true as we really only learn about the Boston busing issue with a hyper focus, not with the large topics. But as addressed in this article the negative “the backlash to busing looms even larger in the mind. It felt personal and unforgettable.

Of course desegregation was a worthy goal because the city was so divided and people felt alienated from one another due to the racism embedded in our cities history. Something that was interesting that I read in “Whitey Bulger, Boston Busing, and Southie’s Lost Generation”, was that when they went for Southies “power”, “the State Board of Education never considered [the realities]”, of the Neighborhood having its own division. But, to let segregation continue in the direction that it was headed would be pure ignorance.

Yes, change most certainly needed to happen in the BPS system given the extent of segregation and racism that was driving groups of people out of their homes due to violence and away from the schools that they deserved to be in because of fear instilled by parents and kids alike. I feel like there weren’t really any other solutions to this problem except for adequate funding to all schools in Boston to level the playing field but if that were to happen there would still be public outcry. And according to one black mother, as she recounted in “The Lasting Legacy of the Boston Busing Crisis”, “And so, then we decided that where there were a large number of white students, that’s where the care went. That’s where the books went. That’s where the money went”, when speaking about the funding given to the schools and the disparities it caused.

I certainly don’t think that going to school during the busing crisis because of the hostile environment that will have been created. I also think that it would be intolerable to feel like you would have to be so belligerent to new people coming into a school. In addition, when I sit at BLS I see a mix of all of the kids of Boston and to be sitting with kids that really only come from one area or background would be odd.

Some of the visible effects that are still here is the division of people into friend groups, neighborhoods and even the subgroups inside of neighborhoods and schools. Another effect is the disparity between the school funding and the education levels of those schools. We see the very clear racial split in certain neighborhoods as well as the certain types of stereotypes that are associated with them. We can als see it in our own school as we shifted away from the ISEE to a zip-code system to make the school more diverse. But, by using zip-codes to determine a person's chance of getting into this school it relates it back to the race of a person and ties their race to their neighborhood which seems almost counterintuitive.

Although it should have happened years ago (even before Brown v. Board of Education), desegregation was the first step in creating a more just education system. Boston Public Schools and the school committee failed all the black students who lacked funding and proper education in their schools meanwhile the white students got all the opportunities, materials, and funding they needed to succeed. Busing was a good idea, but there was also a lack of security. Many students including Elerose Nelson (from the “Echoes of Boston’s Busing Crisis”) felt scared to take the busses to school because people would throw rocks, eggs, and other objects at the busses filled with innocent children that only wanted to learn. Bringing black students to schools in different (white) neighborhoods didn’t solve the issue of underfunding and disregard for the school in those black neighborhoods that were run-down and “cruddy.” (Mark Jawonski - “Echoes of Boston’s Busing Crisis”). BPS should have created a whole new plan where they put more funding into those schools, provided transportation, materials, and better teachers, and protected students and teacher from irrational rioter.

For me, it would have been intolerable to be betrayed by my friends and neighbors. In “How a Standoff Over Schools Changed the Country” Black Bostonians felt betrayed by their friends and neighbors, people who they knew for years and never had a problem with. After centuries of segregation, there was going to be some reaction towards desegregation and, unfortunately, the reaction ended up being violent towards children. The most visible effects of desegregation today can be seen by the difference (both in the diversity and rank) of schools across Boston. School that have or had a mostly white population have better schools, materials, funding, and opportunities for their students compared to schools in mostly black neighborhoods.

Originally posted by palmtreepuppy on October 27, 2022 17:09

Yes, the ends did justify the means in my eyes because Boston is a racist city and when busing was introduced it was very controversial but in the end, even though Boston isnt perfect, it helped to segregate our city and school. Although it could have gone smoother in some ways like not having the change be so drastic and holding more people accountable for their actions, having forced integration was one way about starting to address the segregation in our city. As said in the article “Did busing slow Boston’s desegregation?”, this is something that “we just try to forget”. Which seems to be true as we really only learn about the Boston busing issue with a hyper focus, not with the large topics. But as addressed in this article the negative “the backlash to busing looms even larger in the mind. It felt personal and unforgettable.

Of course desegregation was a worthy goal because the city was so divided and people felt alienated from one another due to the racism embedded in our cities history. Something that was interesting that I read in “Whitey Bulger, Boston Busing, and Southie’s Lost Generation”, was that when they went for Southies “power”, “the State Board of Education never considered [the realities]”, of the Neighborhood having its own division. But, to let segregation continue in the direction that it was headed would be pure ignorance.

Yes, change most certainly needed to happen in the BPS system given the extent of segregation and racism that was driving groups of people out of their homes due to violence and away from the schools that they deserved to be in because of fear instilled by parents and kids alike. I feel like there weren’t really any other solutions to this problem except for adequate funding to all schools in Boston to level the playing field but if that were to happen there would still be public outcry. And according to one black mother, as she recounted in “The Lasting Legacy of the Boston Busing Crisis”, “And so, then we decided that where there were a large number of white students, that’s where the care went. That’s where the books went. That’s where the money went”, when speaking about the funding given to the schools and the disparities it caused.

I certainly don’t think that going to school during the busing crisis because of the hostile environment that will have been created. I also think that it would be intolerable to feel like you would have to be so belligerent to new people coming into a school. In addition, when I sit at BLS I see a mix of all of the kids of Boston and to be sitting with kids that really only come from one area or background would be odd.

Some of the visible effects that are still here is the division of people into friend groups, neighborhoods and even the subgroups inside of neighborhoods and schools. Another effect is the disparity between the school funding and the education levels of those schools. We see the very clear racial split in certain neighborhoods as well as the certain types of stereotypes that are associated with them. We can als see it in our own school as we shifted away from the ISEE to a zip-code system to make the school more diverse. But, by using zip-codes to determine a person's chance of getting into this school it relates it back to the race of a person and ties their race to their neighborhood which seems almost counterintuitive.

I agree with what you said about how "forced integration" was one way to address segregation in our city. While it's true that some black kids were playing with white kids, it wasn't ALL like that. Most of those middle-class black kids lived in the same neighborhood as white kids and that's why they got along so well. However, in neighborhoods like Dorchester and Roxbury, segregation very much still exists. Busing didn't "slow down desegregation", it just showed people's true faces.

Originally posted by palmtreepuppy on October 27, 2022 17:09

Yes, the ends did justify the means in my eyes because Boston is a racist city and when busing was introduced it was very controversial but in the end, even though Boston isnt perfect, it helped to segregate our city and school. Although it could have gone smoother in some ways like not having the change be so drastic and holding more people accountable for their actions, having forced integration was one way about starting to address the segregation in our city. As said in the article “Did busing slow Boston’s desegregation?”, this is something that “we just try to forget”. Which seems to be true as we really only learn about the Boston busing issue with a hyper focus, not with the large topics. But as addressed in this article the negative “the backlash to busing looms even larger in the mind. It felt personal and unforgettable.

Of course desegregation was a worthy goal because the city was so divided and people felt alienated from one another due to the racism embedded in our cities history. Something that was interesting that I read in “Whitey Bulger, Boston Busing, and Southie’s Lost Generation”, was that when they went for Southies “power”, “the State Board of Education never considered [the realities]”, of the Neighborhood having its own division. But, to let segregation continue in the direction that it was headed would be pure ignorance.

Yes, change most certainly needed to happen in the BPS system given the extent of segregation and racism that was driving groups of people out of their homes due to violence and away from the schools that they deserved to be in because of fear instilled by parents and kids alike. I feel like there weren’t really any other solutions to this problem except for adequate funding to all schools in Boston to level the playing field but if that were to happen there would still be public outcry. And according to one black mother, as she recounted in “The Lasting Legacy of the Boston Busing Crisis”, “And so, then we decided that where there were a large number of white students, that’s where the care went. That’s where the books went. That’s where the money went”, when speaking about the funding given to the schools and the disparities it caused.

I certainly don’t think that going to school during the busing crisis because of the hostile environment that will have been created. I also think that it would be intolerable to feel like you would have to be so belligerent to new people coming into a school. In addition, when I sit at BLS I see a mix of all of the kids of Boston and to be sitting with kids that really only come from one area or background would be odd.

Some of the visible effects that are still here is the division of people into friend groups, neighborhoods and even the subgroups inside of neighborhoods and schools. Another effect is the disparity between the school funding and the education levels of those schools. We see the very clear racial split in certain neighborhoods as well as the certain types of stereotypes that are associated with them. We can als see it in our own school as we shifted away from the ISEE to a zip-code system to make the school more diverse. But, by using zip-codes to determine a person's chance of getting into this school it relates it back to the race of a person and ties their race to their neighborhood which seems almost counterintuitive.

I agree, but some schools in Boston aren’t vey diverse. there are schools across the city that have a very large majority of one race and some very small minorities. Even BLS isn’t as diverse ad many say it is. There is still a large majority of white students in our school and little representation from minorities, especially non-black and non-hispanics. I also agree that busing was the first step to address the segregation in Boston.

The ends most certainly did not justify the means. There was so much unnecessary violence and hate for the simple reason that they put busing into effect.

Desegregation was a very worthy goal. It is crucial to the well functioning of a community.

Change needed to happen. The levels of racism were completely intolerable, and seemingly nothing could fix it. However, this was not the way for schools to go about it. I could not tell you what the ideal solution may or may not be, but I know that this could've been handled in a better way than causing fear and terror into people's hearts.

I cannot imagine having to go into a such a hostile environment like that every single day. I think that almost nothing would be tolerable, and that I, even as a white male, would be on edge every time I stepped foot in the building. I think that the intolerable would have been the violence and the slurs, and I think that everything else would seem very minuscule in the moment.

I think the most visual effect is the amount of racial divide in BPS schools. We learned that after the busing incident, white children were being taken out of Boston public schooling to be put into private schools, and they never returned. This completely effects the racial divide we have in our school today, because many parents who go through private education also put their child into private education.