learntoquestion ltq discussions

Although I feel like they had the right intentions when it came to the desegregation of Boston Public Schools, the way they went about it was not right at all. Forcing busing only caused more friction between neighborhoods, rather than the sense of unity that it was meant to inspire. I understand that drastic measures had to be taken in order for integration to occur within a single year, but the way that it actually occurred made the district seem like they cared about how integration would affect their public reputation, rather than the safety of their own students.

Of course desegregation was a worthy goal; the fact that Boston had not integrated by the mid 1970s is appalling, and the conditions of non-white schools were so starkly inferior and neglected that integration was necessary for people of color to receive a proper education. However, the idea that any district could overcome segregation peacefully within a single school year is downright absurd. BPS should have expected resistance, expected the hate that would have been brought forth, and yet they didn’t. Something that stuck out to me was how Boston’s housing was actually desegregated in the 1960s, but no one knows about that because it was quickly undone in the 70s with the mobs of anti-black sentiment that started to take hold. Boston was on the right track as a city, but the disaster of busing caused them to backtrack significantly, where white neighbors would turn against their black ones, as if they were to blame for integration not taking hold earlier. It was heart wrenching to hear Junior’s story, on how neighbors that he thought were friends turned on him so quickly, and how it caused the black population in predominantly white neighborhoods to diminish greatly. The public response was so horrid that other cities looked to Boston as a worse-case scenario when it came to their own desegregation. Honestly, I don’t see what else Garrity could have suggested or done to desegregate BPS, but I do think that he should’ve made the change more gradual over a longer period of time. Perhaps if the integration was more gradual, people would have been more tolerant, and less violence would occur.

I could not imagine going to school in the 70s. As an Asian-American, it’s not hard to imagine what I would have been treated like at one of those schools, what the mobs and fellow classmates likely would have said about me. I could not imagine dealing with that every single day, while somehow paying attention to my studies at the same time. I suppose that there would have been a sense of community on the bus, amongst kids from the same neighborhood and ethnic background as me, but that community would quickly grow silent as we approached the school, as stated in the documentary. I likely would’ve hated the fact that I would be forced to commute to another neighborhood to attain my education, instead of just going to the schools in my own neighborhood. I think one of the most visible effects of the desegregation era was how poorly it was handled in regards to housing, and how that caused certain groups of people to move to certain neighborhoods, where they’ve remained ever since. To this day, Dorchester is still a predominantly Vietnamese community, Mattapan is predominantly black, and so forth. The desegregation era only heightened the discourse between ethnic groups and drew lines in the sand, which still affect us today. Even if it’s not officially stated, it’s pretty understood that neighborhoods feel like they’re still divided by race, and it’s because of the repercussions of the desegregation era. Although it was technically a success, seeing as all Boston Public Schools are integrated today with minimal public violence, the disparity is still there. Exam schools have so much more funding and opportunities compared to the rest of BPS, to the point where it’s almost like we have become the superior, white-only schools and the others have conditions so bad that they barely constitute being a proper school.

I agree with what glass said, and how I could not imagine my former best friend setting my house on FIRE because of racial differences. And the fact that most families had to move away because of instances like that just shows the trauma that these kids and families underwent, just because they wanted a better education. The fact that most of the perpetrators later received criminal records later in life just shows how toxic the atmosphere in Boston was at the time, and how that shaped their characters overall, from childhood to even today.

I am hesitant to say that the desegregation of Boston public schools justified the means of busing because of the horror it ensued. Busing was a step in the right direction to start a process of desegregating education and making sure it was equally accessible for black children as it was for white kids. The desegregation of these educational institutions was a very important thing, but busing caused so many problems. Black kids were scared to go to school every day. The white mobs that opposed them, especially ones in South Boston were horrendous. Busing caused white teens to turn on their black neighbors. They would beat them, pelt them with rocks, and burn down their houses. People died because of how deep racist hatred ran through Boston. Busing ruined so many lives and defined a generation. Though I think it was necessary, the horror that ensued is still nauseating to think about.

Desegregation is a worthy goal. Change needed to happen in Boston public schools; it was inevitable. Despite the atrocities that followed Judge Garrity’s decision, it was crucially necessary. I do not think there were any other solutions to the issue. It was simply something that needed to be done. It worked more successfully in some schools rather than others. The Holmes Elementary School is an example of this. The desegregation of that school was much swifter and friendlier than South Boston’s process.

I can only imagine going to school in 74’-75’ as terrifying because the only thing that comes to mind is South Boston. There would have been such a thick tension between white and black students at all times. If I were a student during that time, I would always be on guard and very stressed. I can only imagine that any and all wrongdoings against black people were deemed acceptable; while misdeeds against white students were heinous and would end in harsh punishment.

Currently, BPS is 14% white. This is a significant decrease from the 60% before busing. Today, private schools have grown large, expensive, and white. This is largely a direct cause of busing. White parents took their children out of the BPS system and placed them in private schools to escape desegregation. Private schools used to be small, but now they are now large in size and expense. They are a popular schooling choice in Boston. It is truly astonishing how older racial issues have influenced so many things that we never truly thought about.

• Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?
• Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?
• Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?
• Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?
• What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?

The question of did the ends justify the means is difficult to answer. Of course, desegregation was a worthy goal and necessary one. The goal of providing quality education for all and get kids the resources and materials necessary to learn is worthy and necessary however the reform they implemented of busing was handled poorly. It seemed rushed and ill prepared, the government didn’t take into consideration the difficulties and problems that could occur, and they didn’t take into consideration how everyone might react which escalated the issue. Like BigGulp said, forcing people to do something can drastically change someone’s reactions like forced busing which caused such tension and violence. The violence written in these articles are horrible, the mentions of many stabbings and firebombing among other things should have not needed to happen. Especially when it drove people out of neighborhoods and caused more division. So yes, change and desegregation needed to happen and was worthy however the means of busing doesn’t quite justify it due to the fact that there could have been other solutions or more care implemented to reach the same ends in a better manner. I cannot imagine going to school in such an environment, I can’t begin to fathom the violence and hostility people had to go through and it’s horrifying to think of living through that. While the busing could have had better alternative solutions, I still think that it would be tolerable despite the long commutes. The most visible effects today are how schools are somewhat more diverse, however despite all that has happened, there are still issues with schools, the difference in fundings still being a problem and more.

Despite all of the violence that resulted from the desegregation of the Boston Public Schools, I think the ends did justify the means. As mentioned by many others, this was the only way to introduce change and the only way to physically get things to change. In contrast to what milklover777 said, I don't think waiting to do this would have changed anything. While I agree that forced busing probably wasn’t the best execution and that the street violence and response from white people in South Boston was incredibly shameful, it was predictable and fitting. Throughout history, many groups of white people usually resorted to violence to debate against the change that was happening simply because they didn't want to see poc thrive or have the same opportunities they had. Considering this, things probably wouldn't have settled down because even if they announced it early and gave it time, when it’s time for the action (desegregation) to actually happen, the tension and riots would most likely still have happened and probably would've been even worse given the built up fury if they had waited.

Of course desperation was a worthy goal. Events like the desegregation in Boston help the future (in this case, it helped our present). Change needed to happen and I don't think there were any other solutions to the issue following Judge W. Arthur Garrity’s decision. The violence that resulted was devastating and unnecessary but if it hadn't happened we would probably still be in segregated schools and neighborhoods. Though many neighborhoods and schools in Boston still do have a dominant race, there’s still been progress, and some progress is better than no progress at all.

I would not be able to go to school during that environment. The kids in Roxbury who took the bus to South Boston are so brave and much better than I am. I would be way too scared to even walk down the street in that neighborhood especially given the already high tensions from the announcement because the violence would have been intolerable for me. Seeing the violence on the streets on the videos we watched was already so sad and so scary. I imagine they were grateful for the police because it did look like they were making a genuine effort to stop the rioters from harming the children using horses and such but I still would not have been able to put my life on the line for that just for school. It's disheartening to watch children experience things like that and I’m very thankful things are different now.

The most visible effect as a result of the desegregation era of 1974-1975 is the diversity in BPS. This is apparent in Boston Latin School even now too, with the exam school admission process changing because of the huge acceptance of white people. Compared to how it was a few years ago, as I mentioned earlier, there’s at least some progress around it and we are slowly developing to eliminate segregation in our education systems.

• Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?

I think the ends generally justified the means, however the execution of the busing solution caused many white students and civilians to turn to violence, and more backlash in general than was necessary. This rapid solution made white families feel that their rights were being impeded on, and initially caused more misunderstanding. I think the end goal that was reached was overall worth the struggle, but more measures could have been put in place to ensure the safety of students, specifically students of color.

• Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?

Desegregation was not only a worthy goal, but a necessary one. Segregation only perpetuates misconceptions and stereotypes, and continues discourses and violent interactions between people of different races. Specifically, segregation benefited white students and majority white schools because more funding and attention went their way. The disparity between quality of education of white people and minorities in Boston would only grow as segregation of schools continued.

• Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?

I think that change was necessary at that point, although there could have been less harmful and more mindful solutions. Desegregation was always going to be a very difficult transition, but the busing solution was a bit invasive and direct, inciting more violent discourse. I cannot specify any one alternative to the busing solution, but there should have been more planning for a long term solution.

Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?

I am able to get a slight understanding of this experience through the articles detailing the students’ point of view and how the change affected them, like in History Rolled in on a Yellow School Bus. Fear and uncertainty became a regular part of the students’ lives as they were transported to a largely unfamiliar setting, especially for students of color. I would have been able to tolerate discourses between the students, where there is a more even playing field. I think this would be understandable, due to the students being generally less mature. However, being targeted by large violent crowds all rooting against me would not be tolerable. This was a near daily occurrence for children of color especially. Just seeing the potential of the crowd of white protesters in Eyes on the Prize made me wonder how any of the students possibly kept going to school. What would get me especially is the fact that many participating in this would be adults.

• What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?

The most visible effects of the desegregation era today are the increase of white students being put into private schools, due to the parents’ resentment of the busing policy. Consequently, white students have had more access to educational resources due to better funding, while many people of color don’t have this access in underfunded schools. Although schools in Boston have generally been more diversified, unfortunately segregation has found continuity through white students being put into private schools.

Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?

After watching the documentary about Boston Public Schools desegregation and reading the Boston Globe articles, (but even prior to be honest) I think that the ends did justify the means. I say this because, desegregation was necessary, and as Malcom X says: “by any means necessary”. Although I feel sorry for the black students whose education was jeopardized by the racial tensions of their time. And although no children should ever have to go through what they did, I applaud and am grateful for their resistance, for their ability to thrive, and pave the way for future BIPOC students in the US.

Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?

Desegregation is a worthy goal on the basis of dismantling the falsity that is “race”. Race is a social construct and the division, decrimination, and demonetization of certain people on the premise that somehow their phenotype makes them subhuman is the epitome of evil. Black students deserved the right to an education and one that was just as quality as their white counterparts, with school buildings and teachers who were given adequate funding to fuel their learning mind.

Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?

I think that change did have to happen in the Boston Public Schools, the very definition of Public includes those of the general community as a whole, excluding black students from being able to attend certain schools, specifically pushing them into low income ones benefits absolutely no one nor the whole of a society. It just needed to happen, and unfortunately, although those students had to go through that trauma it was necessary for progress.

Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?

I think it would've been intolerable, as the environment would’ve been a hostile one. Some students may have had trouble focusing on their education, but others may have ensured that they did their best, represented and took full advantage of the opportunity they were at the forefront of.

What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?

The most visible effect I see today are yet again modern forms of systemic inequities. For example the Advance Work Class Program, the school that I attended was BPS and predominantly (98%) Black and hispanic, that 2% remaining, the AWC class’s white student majority. I witnessed the exam school process leave out black and hispanic students when the AWC class all put their educational folders into the BLS pile while only a few students put their folders into any of the exam school bins. I also noticed that at BLS itself, private school attendees are dominant. Private schools themselves and the creation of them are in many ways discriminatory but that’s for another conversation.

I think the only argument to justify busing was the ends justifying the means. According to Michael Patrick McDonald, education worsened in the short term - attendance was nearly 50% at South Boston High School for years after and the school was already poor - but would become more fully integrated in the future. In summary, the means were messy and hurt the education system for a couple of years but overall benefitted race relations in Boston.

It absolutely was a worthy goal. In order to become more open minded people must meet those who are different from them rather than their own insulative communities. While South Boston High was just as dire a school as its counterpart in Roxbury, they set the future in the right direction because now both communities would try to help each other rather than oppose each other.

Such segregated schools in BPS made busing necessary there. I am not aware of any other solutions but busing black students to more rich suburban schools. This would’ve given them a better education while challenging the white status quo there. (This also would’ve affected Garrity’s Wellesley, which might have changed his opinion on the matter)

The overall justification (racial integration) would make sense to me but the distraction of racial fights, tension between two factions, and riots in front of the school would negatively affect my education due to stress and fear of something happening.

One very noticeable effect is integrated schools obviously but a deeper effect I see is the rise of pro-school choice rhetoric. This rhetoric was pushed by middle and upper class liberals who had the means to send their kids to private schools after desegregation of schools. They would say that they were simply exercising a right to choose their education (which everyone should have, they claimed) but were often doing it because they didn’t want to go to school with black children. The effect we see today from this is the rise in private education at the highschool level and its corresponding expenses. (Watch this podcast about school choice if you would like to learn more, I did a poor job of explaining it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLALle6Cvss&ab_channel=TheMajorityReportw%2FSamSeder )

My response to BigGulpFrom711 would be that although commuting across the city is absolutely a chore, doing something as important as racially integrating schools should not be prevented from happening simply because it inconveniences someone or faces backlash. Backlash is certainly not a reason to not do something progressive, see the civil rights movement. I also find it interesting that you brought up how many fewer students are in the BPS system today than in the 70s and this makes me ask the question of whether those fewer students receive better resources compared to more because they aren’t spread between so many.

I do think the ends justify the means in the case of Boston’s desegregation. There probably was a way to obtain the ends while minimizing violence, but I don’t think people expected such chaos to come from the decision. The issue was the extreme overreaction people against the idea had (the rocks being thrown at buses and the boycotting of schools for example). It is important to note that most of the violence was from the white people in South Boston. In the article titled “History Rolled in on a Yellow School Bus,” they told the story of a white woman at South Boston who was scared because one of her sons was being sent to a high school outside of her “safer” neighborhood. Another son was going to his neighborhood school, but as he walked there he saw an angry mob greeting the buses. A little kid in one of the videos we watched summarized the situation well when he said that white people don’t get rocks thrown at them when they come into his neighborhood, so why do white people throw rocks when he goes to their neighborhood. But, at some point, tensions did simmer down leading to a somewhat better Boston.

Desegregation was definitely a worthy goal for Boston. Schools in whiter neighborhoods got more funding compared to schools in blacker neighborhoods. Desegregation was the only way Boston could step closer to being a place of equal opportunity. Desegregation is a worthy goal for any place. There were many hurdles trying to get to this goal. In the article called “Did Busing Slow the City’s Desegregation?”, those hurdles were touched upon. Black people were driven out of their neighborhoods by angry white people against busing. Teenagers were throwing bricks at the windows of friends. The article talks about how a decade after 1970, the black population of east boston and south boston and charlestown went from triple digits to double digits. The hurdles were huge, but the goal was still worthy.

Change needed to happen. I think people would’ve reacted violently to change no matter what, though there could have been less violence. Maybe just better funding for the less funded schools would’ve been a safer remedy to the education inequality. Though what happened wasn’t the ideal change, change was necessary and no change would have been the worst option.

I can't imagine going to school at that time. I wouldn’t be able to handle all the tension. I couldn’t imagine such an environment of hate where teenagers attack their old friends and drive them out of their homes. The hate from the parents trickles down to their children. Small interactions turned to fights in the schools. I couldn’t tolerate any of it.

The effects of the desegregation era are visible today in the neighborhoods and schools of Boston. The populations of schools are more diverse than before, which is a good thing. A lot of white people moved out of Boston or switched to private schools because of busing. The long term effects were mostly positive but not all.

freddie gibbs fan touches on the rise of pro-school choice rhetoric as an effect of Boston’s desegregation, which I hadn’t thought about. I found the podcast they linked helpful too. It’s definitely a visible effect today. I'd like to learn more on this topic.