learntoquestion ltq discussions

Originally posted by mustardspider on October 27, 2022 19:50

Desegregating BPS justified busing kids to other neighborhoods and was a worthy goal. Part of being a good citizen is extending yourself past just your own community, and this is nearly impossible if students grow up with only those just like them. The hate and violence that stemmed from the busing was unacceptable and cruel to the children, but worth persevering through for the increased integration of the school system. It should not have been an issue, however, and the violence against innocent children should not have been part of the integration of the Boston Public Schools.

Change needed to happen in the Boston Public Schools because the pre-remedy system was essentially still segregation. The primarily white schools were favored in funding and resources, while primarily black schools were left fend for themselves. Without forced integration and mixing of neighborhoods, this unequal treatment would've just continued, and this was, while not the most peaceful path to take, the necessary one.

Nothing about the school environment of 1974-1975 seems tolerable. We could preach about increased diversity, acceptance, and equality, but the reality is that innocent black children were targeted. South Boston parents kept their children out of schools as if the Roxbury kids were the plague and they held violent protests against the busing, physiologically and physically attacking the black children. There is simply no tolerable side of protesting someone's mere physical presence.

There are still lingering effects of both sides of the busing debate, as Boston remains one of the most segregated cities in the country, but busing programs like METCO actively fight to desegregate the education system. The BPS lottery places children in spots across the city, and a West Roxbury kid like myself was placed into a Roxbury public school. However, despite busing efforts, many schools remain racially imbalanced and funding continues to be distributed inequitably.

I disagree with hollyfawn's point that "FORCED busing was not ideal." Most families in South Boston were extremely against the integration of the school system, and it would've been impossible without mandating the busing. Encouragement or reward was not enough to trump the inherent racism and violence of South Boston when receiving the Roxbury kids, and the program would've failed if it was optional.

Post your response here.

I agree that this period was full of intolerable behavior. It is crazy that racist ideologies drove families and students to attack innocent black students. It is also difficult to grasp how racist people were in Boston considering how "progressive" people make out Boston to be in today's world.

n this case, the ends don’t necassarily justify the means, however busing was one of the means of BPS desegregating its schools, and it worked for the most part. The ruling for busing created room for white reactionaries (typically bourgeois) who weaponized the growing tensions among both Black and white working class families, who in the article “Did busing slow Boston’s desegregation?” were described to have been, prior to busing, bonded, with children playing with each, albeit with racialized dynamics. Busing also did not seem to account for economic segregation, which has a racialized element. Children that were bused between Roxbury and South Boston were both sent to underfunded schools and also came from working class families in communities stricken with poverty. This did not change the quality of education provided for these children and Black students, who were more likely to struggle in school based on information provided in the documentary, were not given resources like new books or smaller class sizes. The execution of busing only fueled many Irish South Boston residents’ fear of re-proletarianization (a consequence of the development of the Irish labor aristocracy), as well as their white supremacist notions. This led to the destablization of communities, both in South Boston and Roxbury as described in “Whitey Bulger, Boston Busing, and Southie’s Lost Generation”, which details how white bourgeois benefitted from busing in the new generation of mostly Irish youth who were now turning to street crime and drugs.

Desegregation was a worthy goal, despite its dubious outcome. Schools were, and still are unevenly funded with a disparity in resources from learning materials, to class sizes. Black students in particular were more likely to receive a lower quality/complete education because the Black schools in their neighborhoods did not have the same resources to compete with the white ones in middle class neighborhoods.

Change did, and does still need to happen in BPS. Given racial attitudes in 1974and even after, it is unlikely that the exchange between different neighborhoods and schools with different racial demographics would have occured without busing. However, criticisms of busing can still be held, such as the idea that increased police prescense was adeqate defense for the students of color who were subjected to violence daily when many of these officers were likely involved in anti-busing movements and white supremacist notion in general.

I agree with “moima” in how the affects of desegregation era can still be seen today. There is still a large racialized gap in income in neighborhoods, as well as between students that often determines where somebody goes to school and the education they receive.

• Articles read: 1) Did busing slow down Boston's desegregation? (Boston Globe), 2) Echoes of Boston's busing crisis (WGBH), and 3) Whitey Bulger, Boston busing, and Southie's lost generation (Michael Patrick Macdonald)

After reading these 3 articles and watching the video in class, I believe that busing created an even bigger problem, and didn't help the racism in Boston. Desegregation was a very worthy goal, as separating people by their race is not justifiable in any way, shape, or form. In the video, it showed that your race doesn't define your genes at all, as people from all over the world matched up with each other and had similar traits. It struck me how even though both white and black kids were bused, so many white children dropped out of school since their families didn't want them to be bused. I think that is very powerful because it shows even then how white people were superior. In the first article, a fact that shocked me was that 48% of blacks don't think they'll achieve racial equality in their lifetime. It is very upsetting to hear this, as equality should be a birthright, and it confuses me why this is still in question. Busing caused extreme fear and violence, as people opposed desegregation. They thought it "didn't make sense" for children to get up so much earlier to commute all over town, yet they were making sure to wake up early to throw rocks and other objects at those school buses that commuted those so-called "poor children". If I went to school in 1975, I probably would've fought for desegregation, and against the busing violence. I understand that it was almost 50 years ago, and people had different views back then, but I am sure that there were at least some people that stood up against this injustice. After reading the third article, I can see that busing can also be helpful, despite all of the violence. It made a lot of people feel safer and gave them transportation accommodations. I think it was a good step toward diminishing discrimination, though it clearly still happened. Also, a lot of people, including Judge Garrity, overlooked the opinions of non-white people. I think the most visible effect today of the desegregation era is more diversity, a decrease in prejudice, etc.

Originally posted by BurntGrilledCheese on October 27, 2022 22:43

• Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?

I think the ends justify the means in this scenario. Forced busing was obviously not ideal, but I’m not sure there would’ve been any other way to achieve the same results, especially given the intense pushback in white communities. Attendance was extremely low throughout the year as many white students stayed home. In South Boston Black students faced violent mobs and threats. In “Echoes of Boston’s Busing Crisis” student essays reflect fear of the riots and fights, with many students grateful when they were assigned to the school they had previously attended. However, the chaos did eventually subside, and the schools became less segregated.

• Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?

Desegregation was absolutely a worthy goal. Segregation should not be tolerated in any way as it is extremely discriminatory and harmful. Countless studies have shown that segregation, especially in education, is damaging for students of all races and classes. Children are extremely impressionable, making it even more important that they are able to engage with other students of differing backgrounds in order to help them learn important values like toleration. Students learn more, and are challenged more when they are in classrooms with diversity of background and opinion. As education is the basis for democracy, this is extremely important.

• Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?

Change absolutely needed to happen within BPS because it was extremely segregated. Busing as prescribed by Judge Garrity accomplished that task. The violence and hatred which lept from busing absolutely placed children in danger, but as I mentioned earlier, I’m not sure there were any other viable options. White parents, as they clearly demonstrated when busing started, would do anything they could to prevent integration, so a forced system of some kind was likely the only way to actually make a difference.

• Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?

I cannot imagine what it would’ve been like to attend school during the 74-75 school year. The long trip to school would not be the issue, I took the dreadfully slow school bus at my last school, and even now my commute to school takes some time. However, the tense and violent atmosphere would become maddening. It would be incredibly difficult to learn and focus in that kind of environment. The scenes on school buses, especially as described in “History rode in on a Yellow School Bus” are horrifying, and were surely terrifying for the children involved.

• What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?

I definitely agree with moioma that the most visible effects are seen in the continued inequalities within BPS. Massachusetts public schools as a whole are more segregated today than they were in the 1960s. BPS has technically become more integrated, but in 2018, 60% of schools in the district were still “intensely segregated”, defined as schools where students of color make up 90% or more of the population. That is an overall increase in recent years. One of the big effects of busing and desegregation was white flight. Not only did white people move out Boston, but even those who remained started sending their kids to non-BPS schools. White people make up 52% of Boston today, but just 15.2% of BPS students as of last year. Since non-public schools were not a part of the court-mandated desegregation, many White parents switched their kids over from BPS. The less white students enroll in BPS, the less integrated it becomes. On top of enrollment, funding is also a major issue. The first school I attended was relatively integrated, but mostly made up of middle and upper-middle class families. We had school events, a music program, and a nice building. My second school was predominantly Black and Hispanic, where 52% of students were English Language Learners, and 63% were economically disadvantaged. We had a nice library built in the school, funded by Target, but no one could use it because we couldn’t afford a librarian. In the winter, we had to steer clear of certain hallways because water would freeze under the floor and it would crap and popup. BLS is also a prime example of how much funding and attention gets poured into the exam schools, leaving other high schools in BPS with little recognition, and therefore lack resources. Desegregation in Boston and Massachusetts schools was not solved in the 70s and 80s, and continues to show itself as a major issue in our education system today.

I agree with the points that you made about the visible effects today of the desegregation era. There is a wide range of quality of education in BPS, and that's all because of funding. You can easily see the patterns that emerge when looking at the resources that schools of different neighborhoods and demographics have, and they are lingering effects from the desegregation that was not completely solved.

Boston’s busing system did subsequently cause problems among racial communities and inconvenienced parents and students alike, but it was necessary. The purpose of the system was to integrate schools and provide a fair, if not equal, share of good opportunity and education to white, Black and minority students. Desegregation was the larger and worthy goal here. If the busing system was not enacted, white communities would continue receiving larger funding in their neighborhoods and schools, while the communities of Black Americans would simultaneously be neglected. There would be larger disparities between races today if there was no busing system. Additionally, students would never reach a level of understanding between communities if Boston continued to allow races to be separated from each other through systemic barriers such as having access to well-funded education. Change needed to happen within the Boston Public Schools, but at the same time, work had to be done to bring up neighborhoods by allocating resources to all areas of living. Much of the backlash that the busing system got was that white communities and Black communities alike were facing poverty, and it didn’t matter so much that students were being bused to different locations because even schools in white neighborhoods were barely scraping through. Although it may seem that simply encouraging the busing would be okay, I agree with @mustardspider that people wouldn’t do it unless it was enforced. After all, the busing program was highly controversial, and if Boston truly wanted to desegregate, the city can’t play around with people’s preferences. As for going to school in 1974-75, I can’t imagine it because I’ve always felt relatively safe in my community and I was already at a mixed school, albeit very Asian. The act of busing itself would have been tolerable to me because I attended an elementary school that’s further away from my neighborhood and have dealt with hours in the bus. Though, one setback would be that I wouldn’t get to choose the school I go to, and I would have likely had to experience more Asian racial slurs or people’s stereotypes toward Asians because I would have likely been paired with a more white or Black-student school. I attended a predominantly Asian school, so I didn’t have to experience that in my childhood. Today, some of the most visible effects of the desegregation act is more racially diverse schools, relatively similar amount of funds granted to Boston schools, and the interconnectedness of cultures and learning alongside peers different from each other.

Forcing the children to get on buses and attend a school across town where they weren't wanted is not the way to go about desegregation. It caused even more tension between black and white people because the white kids felt like the black kids were invading their space. They could have gone about it a different way. Desegregation was certainly a worthy cause. Black and white people should be able to go to the same school, without any violence. And everyone deserves the right to an education. I certainly could not live in the time period during busing because there was so much violence, and barely any learning. The whole point of busing was to help African American children get a "better" education at a white school. But that really didn't happen because people were not actually focused on learning they were focused on protests and black children were fearing for their lives when attending school. The most visible effect of the desegregation era is still seeing most schools either predominantly black or white. In poorer neighborhoods, you see more predominantly black children and many of them are not able to get as many opportunities as whiter schools.

Originally posted by mashedpotatoes25 on October 28, 2022 01:11

• Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?

I think that the ends did justify the means for the most part. Segregation in Boston was an issue that needed to be solved and that was one of the main ways that that could've been accomplished. Most of the negatives of busing were due to the reactions of the white people anyway. They were the ones that were causing the trouble surrounding this. There is absolutely no reason for full grown adults to be throwing stones at children on buses trying to get to school.

• Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?

Desegregation is of course a worthy goal. Segregation is racist and its dismantling is completely necessary if we want to build an anti-racist society.

• Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?

Change definitely needed to happen in the BPS because segregation was still very prominent. Black students deserve quality education just as much as white students and that was not happening under that system. I don’t know if any other solution would have been better but change had to be made regardless. Most of the people who were very anti-busing were using that as a disguise for their racism so I think that those people probably would’ve found something to be angry about regardless.

• Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?

It must have been a very tense environment to be in. I can’t imagine how scary it must have been for students to be attacked and yelled at every morning on the way to school. I already have a pretty long commute to school now so I don’t think I would’ve had a problem busing in terms of distance to school. It would be very scary to be constantly worrying that the bus would be attacked on the way to school though.

• What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?

The neighborhoods in Boston are still very much segregated but schools are more diverse now. I went to a private elementary school that was not diverse whatsoever so BLS is significantly more diverse in comparison. There is definitely more work to be done to make schools even more diverse though. I’ve also noticed that even today people still have very strong opinions on busing. Many people are still very anti-busing. I agree with Twilightsparkle22’s point about the ISEE removal. It definitely allowed for more diversity at BLS but it was also extremely controversial like busing was at the time.

Although I agree that segregation in Boston was an issue, I feel like they should have eased into it instead of going head first. Because it caused so much violence on both parts. And it made kids not want to go to school which certainly does not benefit them.

Originally posted by mustardspider on October 27, 2022 19:50

Desegregating BPS justified busing kids to other neighborhoods and was a worthy goal. Part of being a good citizen is extending yourself past just your own community, and this is nearly impossible if students grow up with only those just like them. The hate and violence that stemmed from the busing was unacceptable and cruel to the children, but worth persevering through for the increased integration of the school system. It should not have been an issue, however, and the violence against innocent children should not have been part of the integration of the Boston Public Schools.

Change needed to happen in the Boston Public Schools because the pre-remedy system was essentially still segregation. The primarily white schools were favored in funding and resources, while primarily black schools were left fend for themselves. Without forced integration and mixing of neighborhoods, this unequal treatment would've just continued, and this was, while not the most peaceful path to take, the necessary one.

Nothing about the school environment of 1974-1975 seems tolerable. We could preach about increased diversity, acceptance, and equality, but the reality is that innocent black children were targeted. South Boston parents kept their children out of schools as if the Roxbury kids were the plague and they held violent protests against the busing, physiologically and physically attacking the black children. There is simply no tolerable side of protesting someone's mere physical presence.

There are still lingering effects of both sides of the busing debate, as Boston remains one of the most segregated cities in the country, but busing programs like METCO actively fight to desegregate the education system. The BPS lottery places children in spots across the city, and a West Roxbury kid like myself was placed into a Roxbury public school. However, despite busing efforts, many schools remain racially imbalanced and funding continues to be distributed inequitably.

I disagree with hollyfawn's point that "FORCED busing was not ideal." Most families in South Boston were extremely against the integration of the school system, and it would've been impossible without mandating the busing. Encouragement or reward was not enough to trump the inherent racism and violence of South Boston when receiving the Roxbury kids, and the program would've failed if it was optional.

I agree with mustardspider that the school environment in 1974-75 was very awful and discriminatory. I think that the ideas mustardspider proposed such as preaching diversity and acceptance are very good. I did not know that Boston is one of the most segregated cities in the country. I also think that "forced busing" is not ideal, but it is a good step towards less discrimination and more equality.

I think that the ends do justify the means in the case of desegregation and busing. It was an incredibly violent time in the city because of the busing, but 50 years later the progress that has been made due to this desegregation is evident. Boston still very clearly has issues with segregation and gentrification. However, the schools are no longer segregated, and everyone has the ability to attend them. I think that the divide and violence that was caused by the busing was pretty much inevitable, although I think that there were probably better alternatives to desegregation that would be ultimately safer. Using traditional yellow school buses with minimal protection was evidently not the safest method of transportation and there was very little police support or anything. I don't necessarily know what a better alternative would be, but I think that the nature of the busing was very much flawed in such a way that would increase the divide.

I think that desegregation was definitely a worthy goal. There was very clearly a gap in the quality of the schools before they were integrated. Although you can criticize the method by which they were desegregated, the end goal was definitely worth it. BPS is far from a perfect system, but it is still much better than if schools were still forcibly segregated. The current system allows for everyone to get a relatively decent education with a level of guaranteed social and financial support that would not necessarily be possible with the segregated schools. In addition to this, segregation is always terrible and discriminatory, no matter the result.

I think that change definitely needed to happen. There were two completely unequal systems in place to educate children. One of them was significantly better and provided better support in every way for the children. It is crucial that all children should have access to this, and so the desegregation was critical. However, I think that the method by which it was enforced was terribly executed. The manner by which kids were just suddenly injected into a new hostile place was terrible and the way it was done only increased tensions. I think that there were plenty of better ways to do the system than to just brute force completely change the fundamental structure of the system. I think that there probably should have been a little slower integration, both ways. This allows for there to be more of an "adaptation" period to the new systems, before adding more kids. I also think that throwing all of the kids onto a yellow school bus and just sending them off is a terrible idea. It makes them so much more vulnerable to attacks. I don't know of a different alternative, besides maybe increased police protection, although that probably wouldn't do anything. However, the method of transport itself was still incredibly flawed.

I think that just so much of the system in 1974 would have been different that it is very hard to imagine. I feel like there still would have been a lot of tension within the schools and that it would be a bad environment to be in. These are two sets of people who have been taken in their communities and placed into a new, possibly hostile, environment. There would likely have been little intermingling of the white and black students, as everyone would just stay with the people they knew. This could also add tension. I think that I would have been apprehensive of being removed from my old school and community to be forcefully moved to a new one. However, I do think that I would have supported the idea of integration.

I think that the effects of desegregation are relatively clear. For one, our schools aren't segregated anymore, with a relatively diverse population in the BPS. However, I think you can still see segregation within the system itself still. Many of the schools in certain neighborhoods aren't as good as others. I think another thing is that a lot of middle class white people don't really have children in the BPS, and send them to other schools. This is evident that while there may not be explicit legal segregation in our school system anymore, there is still a level of economic and racial segregation within the school system as a whole.

Originally posted by moioma on October 27, 2022 21:27

Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?

The end justifies the means, however that is not to say that forced busing was the best option. The lengthy and laborious process of desegregation had to start somewhere. The busing issue itself was representative of a much deeper national issue; the internalized and underlying discrimination throughout Boston’s white community and other Northern communities. In the Atlantic article, “The Lasting Legacy of the Boston Busing Crisis,” author Michael Delmont details how opposing busing was a move by white communities “that obscured the histories of racial discrimination and legal contexts for desegregation orders.” Discrimination in the North was harder to pin-point so without taking action and enforcing busing in Boston Public Schools, when would the nation realize the amount of concealed racism that persisted in Northern institutions and legislations? The battle of busing and desegregation helped to uncover the disturbingly intense racism and hatred that existed nationwide. It also showed communities of color that the fight for equality was far from over.

Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?

Desegregation was 100% a worthy goal. Children are significantly more impressionable and more open minded when it comes to social constructs like race. By implementing practices that allow for children to be exposed to a range of backgrounds and identities, it enables them to grow up as more accepting individuals. Despite the numerous benefits of a diverse classroom, the dream of a desegregated school system was more than just a mixed classroom. Delmont explains that, Americans’ understanding of school desegregation in the North is skewed” and fails to address a plethora of discriminatory practices beyond segregated school systems including “housing covenants, federal mortgage redlining, public-housing segregation, white homeowners associations, and discriminatory real-estate practices.” These practices “produced and maintained segregated neighborhoods, as well as the policies regarding school siting, districting, and student transfers that produced and maintained segregated schools.” Desegregation involves equality beyond school and is a crucial step in ensuring that the United States is a land of freedom, justice, and equality---as it claims to be---for all its citizens.

Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?

Change needed to happen in many Northern neighborhoods, not just Boston Public Schools. With that being said, there could have been safer and more effective alternatives. My biggest issue with Judge Garrity's decision was that black and white children were in danger everyday for attending school---a basic human right. I wonder if the transition could have begun by improving school conditions and allotting the necessary resources. This includes distributing more qualified and experienced staff and teachers in underfunded districts and classrooms. Michael Patrick MacDonald from the article, “Whitey Bulger, Boston Busing, and Southie’s Lost Generation,” adds that “National news…[focuses] only on the scenes of inexcusable racist violence, without examining any of the equally important class manipulation at play.” Judge Garrity’s decision sent “African American students into a school that, in spite of its predominant complexion, was as bad if not worse than the one they came from. The solution involved more than just joining two schools but addressing the corrupt and imprecise distribution of funds and resources to BPS districts. Especially to the civil rights leaders and advocates, properly funded schools dicated the future of their kids. The fight for black parents was about seeing their kids with the same opportunities as their white counterparts. It was about being on an equal playing field that provided them with the same jobs, the same resources, and the same financial security.

Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?

I would be absolutely terrified as my parents greatly value education so I doubt they would have pulled me out of school. After reading the account of several students who participated in the busing from the article, “History Rolled in on a Yellow School Bus,” I think the bus ride to and from school would be nearly intolerable. I can not imagine the amount of anxiety and fear the children had to endure daily. Nevertheless, some individuals like Aileen Dunner “who grew up in an integrated neighborhood…felt no trepidation…no racial tension.” Her experience with “no protesters, no bitter confrontations, and no heavy police presence,” would have been drastically more tolerable.

What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?

The persisting inequalities between elementary and secondary schools around Boston as well as the sharp racial division of certain neighborhoods and school systems. As I mentioned before, one of the biggest issues with the busing solution was the lack of attention on the distribution of resources like qualified teachers and up to date materials. Funding is still an issue today especially now with Boston's growing wealth gap due to increased gentrification. MacDonald from “Whitey Bulger, Boston Busing, and Southie’s Lost Generation,” agrees that “it can be felt most profoundly today in the reality that poor and working class people of all complexions can no longer afford to live in that city whose turf we fought over, died on, and ultimately lost to speculators and developers who—just like the politicians, policymakers, and gangsters whose careers were made during busing—had none of us in mind.”

I agree with your points about segregation and bussing. The segregation of schools to a degree was and still is a massive problem in our city, and one that needed to be dealt with. I agree that it is especially important to make sure children are exposed to segregation and racism as little as possible. I also agree that the way in which the city went about desegregation did not work and could have been implemented better. As it was, it was very effective at demonstrating the problems in Boston in the 1970s, but that came at the cost of the safety of the children.