learntoquestion ltq discussions

• Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?
  • Yes, it did justify the means. It may not be the best way to have solved an issue like segregation but it does 'solve' the issue. the main problem is the fact that these kids came from schools with little to no funding, rarely any resources, and placed them in schools and expected them to succeed it's like telling a baby to walk, not giving them the proper materials to do so, and blaming them for not knowing how. The black community specifically in America has had such a unique experience and have been blamed for not 'succeeding' at the rate others are but are never given the chance to do so but then blame them for not being able to.
  • This country has had a strong history of resisting any type of change. So the busing made Americans have major growing pains so much so that they resulted in assaulting children who had nothing to do with the court decision for busing. Desegregating the schools is needed because forcing them to interact with people they otherwise wouldn't is important especially at a younger age and it also provides students with a new ideas and new perspectives from other students. Not only does desegregating schools justify the means of busing (although there are better ways) it helps students socially and academically.
• Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?
  • Yes because it gives everyone an equal opportunities. By creating busing to different schools of different neighborhoods they are closer to being on equal standing
  • It is also unfair how other students had more opportunities in terms of their background and former schooling. If former students came from rural southern schools or schools within he city with less funding and opportunity they are at an obvious disadvantage. In the video we watched in class a principal explained how some black students in high school were so far behind. Some didn't know how to read or write a coherent sentence and were automatically at a disadvantage without given a chance.
• Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?
  • times are changing more and more people of different race are immigrating to the United States and it shouldn't stay separate especially if not everyone is given an equal opportunity. Change definitely needed to happen in the BPS system and the busing was the smoothest way it could happen. Teaching kids and allowing kids to be comfortable around kids of different races is very important especially in a country that is as multicultural and multiracial like the United States. It may sound ridiculous to us now but people genuinely did not have a lot of interaction with people of other races.
  • With issues like this Jude W. Arthur Garrity was trying to cater to the white community. Slow integration of the schooling system is not what we need. If kids are the future we should provide them with the adequate resources to succeed.
• Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?
  • No I can't image going to school in that environment. None of what I saw would've been tolerable but knowing the time I was put in there was probably nothing I could've done about it. It was a different time then and being outspoken wasn't encouraged. The most intolerable thing is grown adults trying to inflict harm on children who have nothing to do with what they're fighting for. Why are you screaming at these kids as if they chose to come to the school. It is such a sick mentality and it's cray to think that people either present in the video or in the protests are peoples parents and grandparents and gives me a drop of reality where these things did not happen a long time ago and there should not be a reason why I had no idea of the terrible history the city that I've lived in all my life has.
• What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?
  • I have seen this first hand with the Roxbury prep schools. My sister was the first class and the school had a lot more races present and as time went on the population of non black and hispanic people disappeared, the funding went down and so did the resources. These things still happen today but happens very discreetly.
  • Also the most visible effects is white flight. Outside of and on the outskirts of boston the main population of people are white and after the bussing system of implemented more and more white families left, 'white flight', resulting in less tax funding for schools in the city and a prime example is charter schools.

Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?

I think that any form of desegregating Boston’s public schools was a good idea but I think they should’ve explored other ideas beyond busing and gone about busing in a different way. I think had they started busing/intergration at younger levels, there would not have been as much backlash from white students, because they would’ve been exposed to diversity and change at a young age- when their minds were still very impressionable. I also think that had parents been excluded from the change and the choices (of attending school) were left to the students, the outcome would’ve also been clamer amongst other differences.

Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?

Desegregation of Boston’s public schools was definitely a worthy goal especially with the imbalance of education and opportunities in these schools. There were so many disparities and resources and teachers that the segregated schools would’ve continued feeding cycles of oppression, and desgregation is what allowed these schools to begin change, not just within them system, but expanding outward to Boston. Despite the fact that (in the cast of Roxbury and Southie) the schools were unfunded in both places, the white students still had (and still have) a systemic advantage that they were benifiting from. So the aim to desegregate the schools was still an important goal regardless of the financial and funding differences.

Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?

There were many changes that needed to happen in the Boston Public Schools regarding desegregation- and there many solutions beyond busing. Black children and families should’ve been more largely allowed to transfer to other schools- as much as white children and families were transferring out of predominately black schools. IQ testing should’ve also been disregarded because, in the words of Batson, it was “unfair to children who’d just arrived from rural communities.”

Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?

I couldn’t even begin to imagine going to school in that environment- and like Mylienta said, I don’t agree with any of the actions taken by white people at the time- but I also don’t know that there would’ve been anything I could’ve done about it. I also agree with the idea that the most intolerable thing that occurred during this desegregation busing was when White parents went out of their way to harm or attack small black children who might not have even fully understood what was going on.

What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?

There is a lot of “White Flight” that has occurred, especially as white people move outside of Boston and give more funding to schools out in suburbs as well as charter schools. I also know that while there is some integration in schools like those in Charlestown, they are still predominantly white and disproportionate.

• I believe that the ends in this situation did justify the means, especially since it meant desegregating schools in a very racist city. I believe that desegregation needed to happen in Boston in order to give everyone equal chances and opportunities to succeed in life. What I do not necessarily agree with was the almost political side of this plan. I feel as though the wealthy members of Boston’s kid were not chosen to be bussed but instead the two poorest neighborhoods in Boston. When the bussing was decided Roxbury and South Boston were matched together, both very poor low income schools that did not truly represent the upsides of Garrity's plans. There are some that believe “ Garrity and conservative Hicks were working very well together, for their own class interests that sacrificed South Boston and Roxbury families.” These young children, specifically the black children, were thrown into environments where they are hated for the color of their skins. These children were in danger. Was anyone on the school board a parent? Were any of their kids bussed? Probably not. It doesn't sit right with me using children as pawns.

• I one hundred percent believe that desegregation was a worthy goal. Desperation has caused many POC to be given the opportunities that this country promises in its constitution that were not always granted. Better education, more resources, more jobs, higher income. Desegregation allowed for Black Americans to go to college, and to support their families. Young black children for the first time were given proper school supplies, qualified teachers, smaller class sizes, up to date and accurate books. Not only did this change Black Americans but it also changed white Americans. Desegregation meant less bias, less racism, and more exposure to people that looked different than them. There are tons of benefits to desegregation which is why it was definitely a worthy goal.

• Change needed to happen in the Boston public schools. Education is the most important thing in the world, and having a quality education for all is crucial. Boston public schools were racially and economically segregated and some may argue that it still is but it has still changed greatly for the better. I believe that BPS has benefited greatly from desegregation, allowing for a more diverse, well supported education.

• I honestly can not imagine what it would be like to go to school in that environment. These children obviously were not learning as they were sitting in class fearing for their lives. Grown adults waited for them outside of their schools waiting to throw stones at them. Horrifying. And I'm sure that the violence in the schools was even worse. Imagine if every time someone got bumped into a BLS a fight broke out-that would be chaos. I feel like the education itself would possibly be tolerable if it were better but chances are that they were not even able to fully receive this education because of the racism, threats, distractions, and fear. Every single kid that stepped on a bus was braver than I could ever be.

• I think the most visible effects today of the desegregation era is how many successful thriving empowered POC Americans there are today. But also sadly the income inequality and segregation in Boston neighborhoods is still seen today. The difference in income between West Roxbury and Roxbury is appalling. Segregation still exists in Boston, maybe it is not as obvious as it once was, but the effects are still here.

Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?

I think the ends did justify the means. Busing gave the opportunity for children, who otherwise wouldn’t have had the opportunity, for a diverse and equal education. However, I do think it caused an unnecessary amount of hate––which was probably always underlying, and simply came to the surface. One of the stories I read actually showed that busing drastically changed Robert Lewis Jr’s life. He had been a part of a group of boys (black and white) that played sports together and bonded together, but after busing had been ordered, everything blew up, and the ones he thought were his friends banded together against him. Nevertheless, I think busing was a great step in the desegregation and integration of the Boston community. I think that perhaps it could’ve been done better, but at the end of the day, it was one of the first steps that helped unite Boston again; starting with its young.

Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?

It was one hundred percent a worthy goal. If children are taught young to appreciate each other and love each other, that will raise a whole new outcome for the next generations. I think that desegregation, starting with busing, helped to sever (eventually) what had been decades of division among peoples. It showed the public that we are all people, we all want our kids to be safe, and we all want a chance at education. It was extremely difficult, and is still a difficult problem, but it was something that needed to happen and needed to be seen. However, if you ask me if the humiliation, violence, and hatred towards children was a worthy element of this, I wouldn’t know what to tell you. Yes, there is no salvage without suffering, but it should have never been this difficult.

Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?

The school education system had always been unfair. White students continued to receive adequate and advanced schooling, while black students never got the opportunities (or a fighting chance) for the same education. With the way the school systems had been set up, there was no way the black students could compete with the white students; predominantly white schools had received better funding, teachers, textbooks, etc. Judge W. Arthur Garrity’s remedy was essentially to bridge the opportunity gap between white and black students. He was faced with much lashback from the Boston School Committee, people like Louise Day Hicks. I suppose logically, another solution was to provide adequate resources to those schools which were lacking, but it would’ve never fixed the segregation issue, and would’ve encouraged further division of two peoples.

Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?

I cannot even imagine how terrifying going to school in those times would be––especially for the black students. I would feel so intimidated by the crowds, and the pure hatred running through their veins. I remember the parents screaming in the film about how they feel so unsafe about their kids traveling to neighborhoods they don’t know, but it was the fervor of the crowds that made the environments feel unsafe, not the people. To my understanding, some of the children had to travel super long distances just to get to school, and I think that would be a little difficult to me, but worth it in the end if I’m given the opportunity. As testicular_cancer (🤨) said, the violence coming from grown adults would have been insufferable to see. These are all children just trying to go to school. Leave them alone.

What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?

For one, the elimination of the testing requirements of exam schools. This was done in an attempt to give more opportunities for those with lower income, minorities, and underprivileged groups to succeed. Yet, for example, we still see gentrification, which is a method of segregation––by either race, class, or income. We see more and more people moving into predominantly black areas, and raising the prices of housing, forcing most people to move towards more affordable housing.

• Though there definitely could have been better methods, the ends justified the means. There was no question that majority black schools were facing extreme inequalities and disadvantages: whether it was poorly educated teachers, low and crappy school supplies, inadequate seating, or simply inhumane treatment, these schools suffered significantly worse than their white counterparts. Busing, although there were many flaws in it, ultimately did do its job in desegregating Boston schools. I’m not excusing its means, but looking at it from afar, it solved an ongoing issue and served as one of the firsts steps toward equality. There are not many other ways whereby the schooling system could reflect equality among all races/ethnicities—this brought the two together. In addition, after reading a few of the attached articles, it became a common theme that despite their initial resentment towards integration, the students ultimately revealed that they enjoy the school year more than previous times. Of course, they made new friends, but more importantly it defied a pillar that separated the two races.
• Desegregation was completely a worthy goal. Black people had been disadvantaged since birth and this was largely rooted in the poor education system that they were forced to grow up in. If the nation was to fix this, it would only make sense to take initiative on the birthplace of these inequalities: the schooling system. It might have been in their best interest to start this process at a younger age—early enough in the students’ lives that they are yet to develop any implicit biases regarding race. Despite that minor improvement, this action was necessary and worthy.
• Change needed to happen in the Boston Public Schools. For reasons mentioned above, blacks had faced a significant disadvantage as opposed to the white schools that were often praised for their high production of “scholars”. This was most notably supported by the abundance of supplies that the white schools received in order to enhance learning experiences. The black schools, on the other hand, never received these royalties. There might have been other ways in which desegregation could have been achieved, but this number is small—so small that I cannot think of any off the top of my head. Regardless of the means by which segregation was achieved, something certainly needed to happen. Society, and the nation as a whole, could not continue down this path of inequality for much longer. Something needed to be done to address and remedy this injustice, and that just so happened to begin with school desegregation.
• At the time, the school environment must have been so hostile and hate-filled that it disgusts me. Even after listening to the accounts of what went down on a typical day, I still can’t imagine some of the things that students experienced in school—a place supposed to nourish their educational growth. I feel as though nearly anything would have been tolerated there. You already saw numerous fights breaking out a day, clear racial-based insults and hatred, stoning, and even crimes such as stabbings that took place under those roofs. At the time, and especially in the white-privileged South Boston that this lesson was focused around, nearly everyone was rooted by racist thoughts and implicit biases passed down from generation to generation. Because of that, I don’t think much there would have been deemed “intolerable”—if anything at all.
• Today, I see black people who are enjoying better educational opportunities and a higher standard of living. This is primarily because since the segregation era, they have been able to receive better and more fair education that serves them well in the long run. I see schools that are more integrated than ever before. Although there are still so many extenuating problems still in this idea, we have seen improvements which is an immense positive from this experience. Deeper down, I see the neighborhoods that have been predominantly white begin to assimilate and incorporate races and ethnicities from all over into their communities, ultimately uprooting the racist beliefs previously held within them. Undoubtedly, progress is still needed to be made and not everything is as successful/equal as it seems, but society is still taking steps in the right direction towards achieving a perfectly equal/union nation.

The ends did justify the means, but there might’ve been better approaches to desegregation. School desegregation had to have happened for there to be equal opportunities among students of different backgrounds. However, the backlash of implementing the system of busing created more divisions between racial groups, causing severe violence, and even forcing families out of the homes they’d lived in for so long. I think it might’ve helped to approach the issue slower and give equal resources to all schools, for an easier transition. But in the end, there is no right or accurate way to solve the problem of segregation. In the end, busing did help to bring together communities of diverse peoples and allow all students to enjoy the same opportunities and resources.

Desegregation was definitely a worthy goal, no matter how you look at it. It allowed for better education and equal opportunities for all students. Before segregation, it was mentioned in the video in class how predominantly Black schools had a lot less resources and worse education, mainly due to immense underfunding of the schools. They were poorly educated while white students enjoyed all the privileges. Desegregation was essential for the path towards equality. Knowledge is power, as [someone] once said. Poor education sets people up for failure in the future, not for lack of trying, not for lack of capability, but lack of opportunity.

Change needed to happen in BPS. There were other solutions that could’ve been pursued, but not many that would have the same effects. Although busing did have a lot of backlash and it did cause a lot of violence, it started desegregation in schools in Boston. Something @NotATRex said really stuck out to me. Resources could’ve been supplied to the schools that did not have enough access to them, but the schools would still be segregated. The divisions between the racial groups would still be there, and there would be no chance of a diversified school. Busing was a difficult implementation to adapt to, and it certainly had effects that completely upturned families and lives, and there may have been better solutions, but most of them would not have achieved what busing did.

I could not have imagined going through school in the 1970s. What the students went through is unimaginable. There is not the only the issue of having to adapt to such a big change, such a new environment. On top of that, there was so much violence, so many mobs, protests. There were groups of people waiting for the buses to attack the people inside. I read a short essay by Cynthia Martin. She says that if she were to be bused, she would not know what to do. It’s hard to respond to situations such as these. I think I would not know how to act, what to say, what to do, especially with the divisions between people supporting busing and people not. All the rallies, crowds, and more than anything, the violence, would be almost too much to bear.

The most visible effect of the desegregation of 1974-1975 are classrooms, schools, of people of all different ethnicities and races conversing and interacting and all receiving the same education, the same opportunities, the same resources, that they deserve. However, I don’t think it really is the same opportunities. I don't think many of us realize that students of Boston Latin School are privileged, receiving better education and opportunities than students of other schools. This may not be primarily an issue of race, but more of inequity.

• Did the ends (desegregating the Boston public schools) justify the means (busing)?
  • The ends certainly justified the means. Desegregating the Boston Public Schools was an impressive step forward to equity in an oppressively conservative metropolitan area in a more historically liberal state. The means to achieve desegregation were highly flawed. The bussing system is incredibly controversial, and one can safely argue that unnecessary harm was done to achieve a greater good. The school system actively fueled hate and threatened the lives of its children by ignoring the principles of liberty and social justice the entire effort was built on.
• Was desegregation a worthy goal or not?
  • Of course desegregation was a worthy goal. Education is built on empathy, and the only way to truly learn is to understand who we are, how we got here, and where we’re going. The racial inequalities of the 60’s plagued American culture for far too long, and it was time that the youth be enlightened and liberated from the scornful and disgusting practices of the nation they grew up in.
• Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?
  • Change desperately needed to happen in the Boston Public Schools. Though it certainly wasn’t the most equitable decision, the boiling racial tensions preceding the bussing solution may have very well escalated if more affirmative action had been taken. I wonder how much more damage or possibly even lives lost would have resulted if drastic measures were taken.
• Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?
  • I always find myself perplexed by hypotheticals of this sort. We will never know the pain of black and white students forced to fuel the hate that had been brewing in the country for 200 years. As griffin.lally mentioned, the violence in the Boston Public Schools was intolerable. I remember from videos we watched earlier this week, teachers threatened each other with direct violence in the aftermath of the Michael Faith stabbing. The hostility present in these classrooms is appalling considering schools may serve as places of comfort and safety to students suffering at home.
• What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?
  • The most visible effect today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975 that I see is that I learn and better myself each and every day surrounded by peers from different racial, cultural, ethnic, religious, and economic backgrounds, etc.

Yes, desegregation was a worthy goal. It’s important to make sure everyone has access to the same kinds of opportunities and education to ensure that our society becomes more equitable and fair. In the articles and documentary, it was clear that the imbalance between the schools’ access to resources and money was staggering. Both schools, according to the article, were underfunded yet the white school still had a systematic advantage that the black school did not. Desegregation meant people could chase the dreams they wanted, with the education they were now gaining, and support their families.

Did change need to happen in the Boston Public Schools or were there other solutions to the remedy prescribed by Judge W. Arthur Garrity?

Change needed to happen in the Boston Public School system. Students were not getting a proper access to education and resources and there was excessive inaction on the part of the government. Primarily Black schools didn’t have the same amount of supplies, resources, and consistent teachers, and thus the students weren’t getting the same care and attention to their education. It was a flawed solution but something needed to be done in response to the expansive issue, there needed to be a decisive alteration to the system.

Can you imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975? What would have been tolerable? What would have been intolerable?

I cannot imagine going to school in the environment of 1974-1975, the mobs and violence and tension around every corner. I don’t know what I would’ve done, or how I would’ve reacted to the sheer horror of the situation; slurs being thrown around, glasses and rocks smashed into school buses. And the fact that the violence was primarily coming from grown adults, it’s just insane.

What do you see as the most visible effects today of the desegregation era of 1974-1975?

I think the fact that Boston Public Schools did become more diverse is the most visible effect of the desegregation era of 1974-1975. Although Boston is very much still a racially segregated city, BPS has definitely made some efforts to try to give kids better opportunities and resources. It’s still not enough, though. Schools across the city are still very starkly racially segregated and many do not have the same resources. More work needs to be done, but it is clear that some progress has been made.