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Originally posted by Bumble Bee on October 24, 2021 14:47

Clearly desegregation was necessary to end racial prejudices in Boston. Instead of uprooting tons of kids from their neighborhood they could've first made sure that all the schools had equal resources. If all schools were equal then parents might not have been as mad about sending their kids to a different school.

I wrote about this in my post as well, and I think it's really important to consider. This kind of falls into the category of, "separate but equal," (if the kids are not bused.) When thinking about what solutions would have actually helped this problem it's so difficult because it seems like any of them would still have resulted in the abuse of black children. Would separate but equal have been better? Would it have been just the first step before schools were more integrated? These are all important questions and I honestly do not know what would have been a better solution.

Originally posted by giraffes12 on October 22, 2021 08:52

The ends (ending segregation) were incredibly important. The school system was highly segregated and Boston officials were ignoring the issue. Busing did seem to help segregation itself, but created much more resentment and anger against Black people and children. It also created a lot of danger for them. A lot of them weren't comfortable being driven to school by all white drivers, and being escorted in by only white police officers, which I think is completely valid. I think it would have been better to desegregate a little slower, so that people weren't as angry and violent. Desegregation is a worthy goal, however. Desegregation is very important for children, because they will grow up with diversity. Growing up with diversity is one of the most important things in education, so that kids grow up with less bias against people who don't look like them. Especially white bias against Black people. Change absolutely needed to happen in BPS, but I think the way that they went about it was very dangerous to Black children. Those who were bused to South Boston were in constant danger of white parents and of white kids. Also, some of the poorer children in South Boston were affected by busing as well. Whitey Bulger took advantage of it to sell drugs to more kids, and many got addicted to drugs and even died. I can imagine that going to school back then would be very intolerable. The amount of racism was skyrocketing. The Black children must have had to endure so much, even more than they do now; even though today, BPS is still very segregated and there are many instances of racism and microaggressions. A huge effect that we see from Boston desegregating is how white the private schools are. When the public schools desegregated, many richer white parents sent their kids to private schools. Today, private schools in Boston are still mostly white. We can see that the public schools are more diverse than they were, but many are still not very diverse, like BLS.

I agree that desegregation was needed so children can grow un in diverse environments and not have a racial bias. And also on the fact that the forced busing out black student in unnecessary dangerous situations.

Originally posted by freud on October 24, 2021 19:33

Originally posted by Bumble Bee on October 24, 2021 14:47

Clearly desegregation was necessary to end racial prejudices in Boston. Instead of uprooting tons of kids from their neighborhood they could've first made sure that all the schools had equal resources. If all schools were equal then parents might not have been as mad about sending their kids to a different school.

I wrote about this in my post as well, and I think it's really important to consider. This kind of falls into the category of, "separate but equal," (if the kids are not bused.) When thinking about what solutions would have actually helped this problem it's so difficult because it seems like any of them would still have resulted in the abuse of black children. Would separate but equal have been better? Would it have been just the first step before schools were more integrated? These are all important questions and I honestly do not know what would have been a better solution.

I've been thinking about these questions, too. Desegregation is definitely a necessary step in ending racial hatred, but how could it possibly have been done in a way that didn't put black people at risk or even worsen the racial climate? I agree that at first focusing on the funding of schools and then focusing on desegregation would have been a smarter way to act. However, I'm wracking my brain for answers about how desegregation could been achieved with a smooth, peaceful transition when Boston families were so violently racist, and I'm coming up empty. How can we further desegregation in Boston without displacing families or creating more hatred against people of color?

In my opinion, the idea of desegregation within schools nowhere near justified the busing laws, and the un-thought of reactions from families in South Boston. This is a tricky question though, because desegregation in schools needed to be ended, but how would this be possible, if a radical decision like the busing wasn't made? Although the busing had good intentions, it only resulted in more segregation and racism within the city of Boston, as well as a new fear held by Black families. They shouldn't have had to decide to send their children to a school with no supplies nor resources, or send their kids to a better school, but one with a large risk of harm, committed not just by students, but parents as well.

Desegregation was definitely a worthy goal, and in my opinion, anyone who believes otherwise is flat out racist. The contrast between schools in South Boston and schools in Roxbury was absurd, the amount of resources, space, opportunities, and teachers. But like I said earlier, what would be a smart way to try and further limit desegregation, without putting thousands of children at harm's risk? How can ending desegregation be safe in a city, a nation, that is built on systematic racism, especially one where citizens are ignorant enough to ignore that it even exists?

Change 100% needed to be made within Boston schools, and I say that with complete certainty. The Bostonians who argued that there was no inequality of resources within the schools would never have been able to experience the other point of view of it, unless they magically became Black, or were willing-which future generations know they were not-to send their children to predominately Black schools. Any white person who can confidently say that there was no difference between schools in Roxbury and Southie is completely ignorant, was raised ignorant, and would always be ignorant.

I cannot at all imagine going to school in Boston in that time period nor that environment. Even if I were to try and imagine, or make up a scenario where I did attend school in '74-'75, it would be nowhere near what it was really like. But what would have been tolerable? I think one thing that could have possibly been seen as a 'pro' when it came to busing was open-minded students being able to experience a new community and environment. Even though Boston is a small city, due to its segregation then, and even still now, it can feel like multiple. The things that would have been intolerable are obviously the hate crimes and actions committed not just by white students, but as well as white parents. Grown adults seemed to have no issue harming children simply because of their skin color, and a situation that they had no control over.

I believe the most visible effects of the desegregation era are seen today in the exam schools, and this is for two main reasons. The first is Boston Latin School is seen as the 'hardest', and 'smartest' of the three schools, and the O'Bryant is seen as the 'easiest to get in to'. It isn't a coincidence that Boston Latin School is also predominantly White, whereas the OB has the lowest population of white students out of the three. The second reason is something that happened within the past year. Because of COVID, Boston had to come up with a new way of accepting children into the schools. Instead of a big test, kids were accepted based on grades and teacher's reccomendations, and each neighborhood got a certain amount of spots. This enabled more students in predomintately Black neighborhoods to be able to attend an exam school, but also limited the amount of students from Westie, Southie, or other neighborhoods of the sorts from going. When this new system was put in place, white parents revolted against it, carrying signs and protesting because it didn't seem 'fair' for their children. Seem familiar?

Originally posted by gato927 on October 21, 2021 13:05

• In a way, I think desegregation did justify busing. It was an important change made in Boston, but it benefited the community for the better. It must have been hard on the black students though. They would be attacked for just trying to go to school and get a good education, and this probably affected them a lot. In the article “Whitey Bulger, Boston Busing, and Southie’s Lost Generation” it explains how many white students dropped out of school, and got addicted to drugs, and most eventually died because of this. It is sad to think that people would rather throw their lives away than attend a desegregated school.

Although I understand where you are coming from, I am going to have to respectfully disagree. Although some can argue that busing may have had long term positive impacts, it only magnified the hidden racism within Boston. Black Children were scarred and traumatized for life, over something that they had no say in. I believe the only important change that busing made in Boston was demonstrate all the faults and racism within the city that needed to be fixed.

Originally posted by flowerpower on October 22, 2021 07:03

I'm not sure if the ends justify the means because the means were not the best option they could've been. Desegregation was definitely a worthy goal because integration is key to eliminating racial biases in our society. The desegregation of schools and access to equal quality of education are necessary for the success of students anywhere. Busing was not the best solution for this goal, taking kids away from the comfort of their neighborhoods and placing them in extremely hostile environments does not lead to a quality education. The city could've focused on resolving the root of the issues, why boston was so segregated between neighborhoods, a mostly black roxbury mostly white southie etc. Desegregating Boston as a whole would eventually lead to diverse school environments in which children could be successful. We know from a previous discussion that students in more diverse schools seem more hopeful about the relationship between black and white people. Boston is a city with plenty of racism and positive interracial interactions from an early age, in classrooms, are important to teaching children anti-racism. Going to school during this time would've been difficult and distracted. The tensions between students with each other and with teachers would create a bad learning environment. It may be difficult to get yourself out of the house to school knowing what you would be facing everyday, and it would be difficult to focus in class with people outside of your protesting. One effect busing had was the lost generation of kids (mostly white) who dropped out of school to protest busing. This turned over a large amount of youth to the hands of whitey bulger and drugs.

I agree with your point about focusing on why Boston was already racially segregated by neighborhood. A lot of the school segregation in the city was a result of neighborhood segregation which came from redlining and other housing restrictions/inequities. If we want to improve school diversity we also have to look at housing segregation.

Desegregation was absolutely a worthy goal. The education system was in no ways equal, funding was not distributed evenly between the schools. African American schools would graduate school and it would be as if they were completely uneducated. However, I'm not quite sure if the ends justified the means. It was a stressful and violent time that distracted from the goal of equal education. The abundant hatred only increased, and busing failed to change the systemic issues that existed within the different neighborhoods of Boston. However, the ends were mostly met, funding and thus educational quality became more equal throughout the school system. Change absolutely needed to occur within BPS, there was a committee hostile to any sort of change as African American students were struggling without supplies and graduation with only shambles of an education. Since I technically live in Roxbury (my house is situated on the border, most of the house is in JP but the front and entrance is in Roxbury), I'd likely not be bussed across the city, so I'd be going through less of the problems that, say, my neighbors might be going through. I'd probably be one of the least affected kids in Boston. I would be worried about the ongoing violence in the city, but ultimately it would affect me less than most. Boston overall is still quite the segregated city, but improvements were made during this process, and hopefully the process can continue.

Originally posted by etherealfrog on October 24, 2021 13:23

I think the intended goal may have justified the means, but in practice, busing caused many problems that we are still dealing with today. Many of these problems did not stem directly from busing, but from parents’ reactions to busing, especially white parents. It created an atmosphere of hatred and fear. In the Globe article “History Rolled in on a Yellow School Bus”, there were many accounts of white parents in Southie being afraid to send their children to school in Roxbury, and these are the some of the same parents involved in the protests and violence against Black students entering South Boston High School. However, I’m not sure that a different solution would have changed these people’s attitudes, because if sending their kids to Roxbury could provoke them to attack innocent children with racial slurs and throw rocks at school buses, it seems unlikely that their attitudes on race and desegregation would be different with a different solution. Ultimately, it’s hard to say whether the ends justified the means, but the means (busing) did not justify the reaction that was elicited from the community.

Desegregating BPS was absolutely a worthy goal— it would have been completely unsustainable to continue to allow for such a gross imbalance in resources, funding, and quality of education in majority white versus majority Black schools, and the lack of diversity was harmful to everyone involved. However, busing also causes many problems, as we saw in every source we watched or read. The underlying problem that caused all of this was the way Boston neighborhoods were largely segregated, and the schools were assigned by neighborhood. A disturbing fact I learned in an article I read (“Did Busing Slow the City’s Desegregation?” by Farah Stockman) was that Boston’s public housing desegregated in the 60s, but re-segregated when Boston Public Schools tried to desegregate because white teenagers attacked their Black neighbors and pushed them out of their homes. Boston neighborhoods remain very segregated, so even if the schools are more diverse, the reason for why the schools were segregated in the first place has still not been resolved. If anything, as the article argued, the busing may have slowed progress on desegregating Boston.

Change definitely needed to happen in BPS, because at the time, Black children were not receiving a quality education, and their schools were underfunded. Having segregated schools was also harmful to both white and Black children because they were not exposed to people too different races. In an essay from a white 6th grader at the Holmes elementary school, he said that he didn’t want to go to a school with Black kids for a whole year, because he had almost exclusively been at all white schools. This is just one of many examples of how kids are affected by only being surrounded by people who look like them. However, the way change was done may not have been the best way. It put Black children in danger and made so many people stay out of school or leave Boston, which was harmful to the school system in general.

I can imagine that going to a BPS school in 1974-75 would have been very difficult, especially for people of color being bused to majority white schools like in South Boston. I myself might have been a bit annoyed at having to be bused to a different neighborhood simply because of the inconvenience, but I don’t think that alone would be intolerable. I don’t think that would have been a big issue for me. What would have been difficult would be trying to learn in that environment because of the racial tensions, and it would be hard to have a normal learning experience while knowing what was going on around me.

One of the most effects of the desegregation era that I’ve seen is the way that “white flight” still happens in terms of schooling in Boston. Many white parents who can afford it send their children to private schools or move to the suburbs if their kids don’t get into the public schools they want them to (this could mean the elementary schools that are considered to have better academics or advanced work classes for younger children or the exam schools for high school) because many of the Boston schools are still underfunded and don’t have enough resources, and as a result, the population of BPS has a much lower percentage of white students than the city as a whole.

I think that your last point about the effects of the desegregation era are extremely significant to us as Boston students. The "white flight" is very real in Boston and a modern example of segregation in schooling.

Originally posted by turtle17 on October 24, 2021 21:17

In my opinion, the idea of desegregation within schools nowhere near justified the busing laws, and the un-thought of reactions from families in South Boston. This is a tricky question though, because desegregation in schools needed to be ended, but how would this be possible, if a radical decision like the busing wasn't made? Although the busing had good intentions, it only resulted in more segregation and racism within the city of Boston, as well as a new fear held by Black families. They shouldn't have had to decide to send their children to a school with no supplies nor resources, or send their kids to a better school, but one with a large risk of harm, committed not just by students, but parents as well.

Desegregation was definitely a worthy goal, and in my opinion, anyone who believes otherwise is flat out racist. The contrast between schools in South Boston and schools in Roxbury was absurd, the amount of resources, space, opportunities, and teachers. But like I said earlier, what would be a smart way to try and further limit desegregation, without putting thousands of children at harm's risk? How can ending desegregation be safe in a city, a nation, that is built on systematic racism, especially one where citizens are ignorant enough to ignore that it even exists?

Change 100% needed to be made within Boston schools, and I say that with complete certainty. The Bostonians who argued that there was no inequality of resources within the schools would never have been able to experience the other point of view of it, unless they magically became Black, or were willing-which future generations know they were not-to send their children to predominately Black schools. Any white person who can confidently say that there was no difference between schools in Roxbury and Southie is completely ignorant, was raised ignorant, and would always be ignorant.

I cannot at all imagine going to school in Boston in that time period nor that environment. Even if I were to try and imagine, or make up a scenario where I did attend school in '74-'75, it would be nowhere near what it was really like. But what would have been tolerable? I think one thing that could have possibly been seen as a 'pro' when it came to busing was open-minded students being able to experience a new community and environment. Even though Boston is a small city, due to its segregation then, and even still now, it can feel like multiple. The things that would have been intolerable are obviously the hate crimes and actions committed not just by white students, but as well as white parents. Grown adults seemed to have no issue harming children simply because of their skin color, and a situation that they had no control over.

I believe the most visible effects of the desegregation era are seen today in the exam schools, and this is for two main reasons. The first is Boston Latin School is seen as the 'hardest', and 'smartest' of the three schools, and the O'Bryant is seen as the 'easiest to get in to'. It isn't a coincidence that Boston Latin School is also predominantly White, whereas the OB has the lowest population of white students out of the three. The second reason is something that happened within the past year. Because of COVID, Boston had to come up with a new way of accepting children into the schools. Instead of a big test, kids were accepted based on grades and teacher's reccomendations, and each neighborhood got a certain amount of spots. This enabled more students in predomintately Black neighborhoods to be able to attend an exam school, but also limited the amount of students from Westie, Southie, or other neighborhoods of the sorts from going. When this new system was put in place, white parents revolted against it, carrying signs and protesting because it didn't seem 'fair' for their children. Seem familiar?

I think you raise a really thoughtful question: ...how would this be possible, if a radical decision like the busing wasn't made?

This made me think about just how "radical" this must have seemed. This viewed "radicalism" may have been a reason why many were so threatened by the idea of allowing all children of Boston equal education. It's ironic how it is radical to want children---our future--- to all be educated and treated with the same respect throughout our city.

Originally posted by hisoka on October 24, 2021 19:28

The ends definitely did not justify the means. Yes it got the outcome many wanted but the process children were forced from the comfort of their neighborhoods and put in places where there was no one to stop the violence. Someone was stabbed, there is no justification for that, children were being bullied by literal adults. Desegregation was a worthy goal because the things that would come from this down the line would make lives better for black students than if it never happened. And segregation also helps the white students by growing up in diverse environments and can keep them from having a racist mindset and just make the overall social environment better. Change did need to happen in BPS but there most definitely could have been a better way. Like forcing schools to desegregate and allowing black or white students in their school but definitely not through forced busing. I honestly couldn’t, I would have been terrified because of the behavior of the parents. I probably wouldn’t have cared about moving schools as much as I would about the treatment from the whole situation. The visible lasting effects would be all children being able to pick what school they want to go to and them not being single race schools.

I agree with your views on segregation in Boston Public Schools and I agree that change was necessary to desegregate. However, I'm not sure if children being able to pick what school they want to go to is the best solution, I think this might resegregate the school system preventing the diversity you talked about earlier on in the paragraph.