learntoquestion ltq discussions

Originally posted by mellifluously on September 30, 2020 19:28

Oh boy. Oh, oh, oh boy. Yeah, that is the title I chose for a good reason. Seriously, are we living a fever dream? We are indeed going through a pandemic in which one of the virus’ main symptoms is a fever. Pinch me. Maybe we’ll wake up.

Anyway, this debate was an ultimate trash fire. I did like how Anthony Zurcher from the BBC article described the debate: "In a debate that was the political equivalent of a food fight, the winner is the man who emerged least covered in slop.” I don’t see the lie in that statement.

Although we did get to witness a classic Twitter-esque Trump on the podium, Biden did, sadly enough, end up stooping down to Trump’s level, even if not completely so. The one person most of this nation considers a “savior” from Trump ended up doing what Trump did. He didn’t maintain composure and used insults such as “clown” (which then again, were absolutely hilarious, but we’re talking retrospectively).

Yes, Trump did indeed interrupt him 73 times and go for the poor moderator (who should’ve honestly set his place as the delegator of the debate), but again: if Biden had wanted to juxtapose his demeanor to Trump’s in an attempt to demonstrate who could be a better president, he did a poor job. The debate should have remained civil, but clearly, it didn’t, to both the dismay and entertainment of the hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of people watching last night.

I agree with Biden's failure on some levels to remain calm despite Trump's behavior to appear to be a better leader. However, I give Biden some credit for remaining as calm as he did. He would have presented himself better if he was the complete opposite of Trump, but it is hard to remain calm when being obnoxiously yelled at and interrupted by someone on live television.

Originally posted by SleezMoth on September 30, 2020 21:18

Trump is fighting with emotions by attempting to get his following hyped up and keep Biden's following from hearing anything, as seen when Trump is forced into a logical "what are you going to do" question he imidiatly changes to saying how good he's been doing in some other aspect of the presidency.

I completely agree with this. Trump's personal attacks were clearly fighting with emotions. Not only does he want to get his following hyped up, but he knows these attacks would get under Joe's skin. The emotional attacks also distract both of them from fighting about the more important debate topics like policy. I also mentioned that he deflected questions often. He thinks so highly of himself that he couldn't possibly think critically about his job in office or how he could improve. If he's met with a question he can't answer he just deflected it and made completely unrelated points. I worry that in doing so, he was able to appeal to a lot of uninformed voters who don't realize what he is doing.

The presidential debate was a hot mess. Trump's refusal to condemn white supremacy lead, Biden's (iconic) "Will you shut up man?", and both candidates' constant interrupting, running over their allotted speaking time, and ignoring the moderator led to an exhausting watch that could be hardly called a debate. What little I could glean from the candidates was that Trump implied he will not be endorsing a peaceful transfer of power in the case he isn't reelected and that Biden will be making steps toward a greener nation if he is reelected.

The candidates' character both unfortunately shined through here: Trump resorted to ad hominem attacks including an attack on Biden's son, while Biden returned with open mockery, calling Trump a clown. Character is an important informant of leadership and Trump's excess of low-blow insults have made his immaturity even more apparent.

While the rest of the world looks on in pity and disappointment, I doubt American voters will be swayed by the debate. Biden and Trump supporters have been very set on their candidate from the very beginning. The debate was also barely a proper debate with sound arguments, so there is very little potential for changes in opinion.

Originally posted by Fireheart on October 01, 2020 22:24

Last night was the first night that I ever watched any kind of political debate, nevermind a Presidential debate, and to be honest, I’m not all that impressed. There was a lot of name-calling on both sides and a lot of interruptions. It reminded me of a middle school fight, really. There were times when I just wanted to turn the TV off, it was that embarrassing.

It was really frustrating for me, as an American citizen and soon-to-be voter. I feel like I didn’t learn much from that debate and I’ve already made the decision to vote for Biden so I imagine it must have been even less helpful to those who are still undecided. I also don’t think that it will have much of an effect on the election because, as I said before, it was more about lobbying insults rather than presenting well-planned proposals and policies. I mean, “the best Presidential Debate in history”? I think that’s going a little too far. I may not have a lot of experience watching political debates, but even I know that that was far from “best” and much closer to “embarassing”.

For me, this debate really solidified my view on the character of the two candidates. I’ve always seen Joe as a people person and a person for the people. He really showed that last night when he repeatedly looked at the camera and addressed the American people. That made me feel seen and like I was important amidst all the bickering and bullying that persisted. He was very clear on where he stood on most things. He also answered most questions directly, except, if I remember correctly, the one about filling the Supreme Court with Democrats. He was clear that he doesn’t support the Green New Deal and that he has his own plan in place. I feel like Biden should have addressed it because even though it’s going to raise some issues from both sides, voters deserve to know where he stands. I also think that the topics of the Coronavirus and climate change should have been really easy for him. There were times that he could’ve pushed his arguments further but I think that it all got lost in the ad hominems.

Donald Trump, on the other hand, acted just as I knew he would. He was a bully, interrupting Boden on numerous occasions, and even clashing with Chris Wallace, the moderator. What really stood out to me, and what I think should have been concerning to all Americans, was his inability to condemn white supremacists. Even when he was first asked the question, he avoided really answering. When Biden and Wallace pushed him to take a more assertive stance, he said, almost off-handedly and carelessly, “Proud boys: stand back and stand by.” And then he told his supporters to be ready to watch the polls very carefully. He also couldn’t definitively outline his healthcare plan, even though he’s been trying to get rid of Obamacare for the last three years. How can you get rid of something so important to tens of millions of people and not have a replacement plan in place? I think Donald Trump is a lot of talk and no action with some things. In others, his actions say a lot about the kind of person he is. I really have trouble understanding why people support this man. He is so obviously blatant and obvious about his racism, hatred, and virtual indifference towards injustice. Anyone with common sense who took the time to do some research could see it.

Character is very important to me. I don’t want to vote for someone who doesn’t see me and the injustices that people like me face. I don’t want someone who lies to the point of losing my trust. I mean, respect and integrity are still things right? Because the way things are going you’d think that we’ve lost all sense of morality and human decency (and by we I mean a select few). It’s really saddening to see the direction that America has taken these last few years, and more so these last few months. This election is critical this year and I think it’s going to be very close.

On another note, I found it absolutely hilarious when, asked about his tax returns, Trump said that he’d eventually share them with the American people, to which Biden replied, “When? Inshallah?” Inshallah is a very common phrase in Arabic used by Muslims. It’s literal meaning is “God willing”, but every child knows that when they ask their parents for something and they say “inshallah”, they really mean no. So kudos to Biden for that barb. It probably passed over Trump’s head, but all of my siblings were dying laughing.

Hi Fireheart! I wanted to quickly thank you for explaining the humor behind Biden saying inshallah, I didn't understand the cultural context and it's much funnier knowing. And you're absolutely correct that Biden had the potential to make strong arguments against Trump but returned his ad hominems.

And character is a huge determinant in who I choose to support so I completely agree. I cannot support someone who has shown that they don't want to protect or support my people. Those claiming that empathy has no place in politics come from a place of extreme privilege.

The debate was a disappointment from both sides. Trump spouted out misinformation, and didn't respect the terms of the debate right out of the gate. Biden had the chance to make genuine political argument, but instead decided to stoop to Trump's level and throw around insults just the same. I'm not really surprised that it happened this way, as we've all seen how Trump has acted when met with criticism. The ad hominems became the center of the debate, and any actual political discourse was drowned out. I feel like both parties already know that voters are already decided for the most part, and so the debate was more of a means to try and make the other candidate look stupid. I doubt any undecided voters became "decided voters" after hearing the debate. I don't necessarily feel any emotion towards either side, and this debate might have made me care LESS about politics. If I were to feel anything about this debate, then I would say that I feel cheated out of 1 hour and 36 minutes. I came out of the debate learning little to nothing I didn't know already about the candidates, and I am more or less disappointed in how it all went down. There might be a few quotable retorts, but I genuinely feel like nothing of values has been gained from this debate. I want the next debate to have strictly enforced time limits, because the 2 minute limit felt more like an afterthought in the debate.

The whole "Proud Boys" thing was still pretty messed up, though.

Originally posted by freemanjud on September 30, 2020 21:34

@SwedishFish: glad you brought up "gaslighting." What exactly do you mean here? Can you give us some examples

Yes of course. Now I don't have any direct quotes, however President Trump's entire debate tactic, in my opinion was to gaslight Joe. Confusing an individual, talking over them, spewing their facts as lies, redirecting the narrative, and insults are all forms of gaslighting. When Donald Trump talked over Joe and the moderator numerous amounts of times while simultaneously insulting their family and personal issues redirected the entire narrative of the debate. The things that Trump said to Joe were no where near in relation to the questions or answers provided. Another example is when Joe Biden brought up Donald Trump's tax records from 2016-2017, which has been proven to have truth in it, was of course denied by President Trump. The Democratic Party has been pushing Trump to publish his records and he refuses...what is there to hide? Therefore when he says that Joe is lying, this is a form of gaslighting and reoccured throughout the debate.

I feel like procrastination has truly worked in my favor lately. As of right now, 2:44a.m, 10/02/2020, news broke about an hour ago that Trump has tested positive for COVID-19. Now, I need not express any ill will towards Donny boy, but oh boy, the IRONY here is almost poetic. His comments ignorantly mocking Biden for wearing "the biggest mask I've ever seen" from "200 feet away" did not age well.. At all.. Besides the very real implications and impacts of our President catching corona, on top of the debate, America just seems to be culminating into one big joke where the entire globe knows the punchline except for us. As for the debate, that in and of itself seemed like a really bad joke that just.... never had a punchline. And honestly, I don't think I want there to be. There was an absolute lack of class, integrity, and etiquette, not only between two people debating, but TWO AMERICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES. It was literally a circus. It almost makes me want to say sorry to my peers and to the rest of the world. Smh

Originally posted by slothman on October 01, 2020 13:32

The first debate was by far the most unprecidented, unorganized, and least productive debate I've ever heard. No one man made a serious point, it just ended up being who could critizice the other more. Like I understand they're not friends or anything, but would you stop piping in on the other person and listen? Or maybe instead of saying how the opponent is bad or wrong, how bout say how you are right and how you should be elected or re-elected. Comments regarding smarts, Biden's son, and "sarcasm" are just not necessary.

I don't think I learned anything from the debate, only that our country is in serious trouble. They are polar opposite people when it comes to a lot of notions, such as taxes, climate change, and even covid. Trump I think took the aggresive role in this debate, constantly going at Biden and interupting him and the moderator. Biden wanted to seem calm and collected but started to lose it by the end. The moderator also had a very tough time keeping control of the situation, and although it's not very difficult to keep a conversation on track, the moderator seemed to lose it. I think this debate will only make people double back on their previous decisions involving which side they are on by the sure irresponsibility that was shown.

I totally agree. Biden wanted to prove he can be the adult in the room, and as the debate went on, you can see Trump was getting to him.

Originally posted by SleezMoth on September 30, 2020 21:18

I am watching the presidential debate for the first time while writing this, and i am not expecting much, we'll see how it goes. Here are my thoughts:

The moderator mentioned that the debate would consist of 2 minute speaking times and this was not followed at all even though the rules were clearly laid out for them. I don't know if they lost track of time because they were nervous or were just getting carried away. I feel like the presidency should be the most professional job there is out there because you are in charge of many aspects of the entire country, and the vibe I got from our future presidents is that neither one of them is very qualified. However an eye can be turned to this for Biden's case because he was not able to express many of his thoughts over Trump's lapses in self control. It really is a shame to think that our current president, possibly for the next four years can not handle himself under pressure. It's clear throughout the entire debate that Donald's goal was to flush out any strength of Biden's ideas (which themselves were not complete) and that Donald would jump on almost every other word Biden said to make a comment or start his own discussion.

This debate was a disaster just in a discussion point of view. If there were 5th graders talking like this they would be told to stop but these are men who have lived full lives. The ideas shared weren't anything new either, Trump didn't let Biden get out an intelligible sentence on many occasions, but when he did the statement seemed more "finally i get to start" and was not very well said. Trumps, uninterrupted statements were uninformed and were put in very simple language. Trump is fighting with emotions by attempting to get his following hyped up and keep Biden's following from hearing anything, as seen when Trump is forced into a logical "what are you going to do" question he imidiatly changes to saying how good he's been doing in some other aspect of the presidency.

I totally agree, the whole debate was a mess from the start. Trump's interruptions and snide remarks did nothing but distract us from hearing out Biden's ideas. The few times Biden snapped back also betrayed his intentions of "being the adult in the room".

I think the best way to describe how this debate went would be to call it “an unadulterated fiasco.” Personal insults flew everywhere. Both candidates talked over each other and the moderator, often rendering their arguments and statements undecipherable. Logical fallacies were bountiful, especially ad hominem and straw-man attacks.

The constant talking over each other made it a bit hard to hear about each candidate’s plans for the nation as a result, but I did hear Biden supporting his own ‘Biden Plan’ for green energy rather than the ‘Green New Deal.’ I would have liked to hear more about what the Biden Plan was, but to be fair, he did not really get a chance to do so before getting embroiled in a sniping contest.

What I remember most deeply from the debate is that Trump refused to take responsibility for any of the incidents and disasters that have befallen the nation for the past few months. He consistently blamed the coronavirus and all the tragedies that stemmed from it on China, which is just absurd. Yes, COVID-19 first emerged in China, but his handling (or lack thereof) of the coronavirus response is a major reason for why the virus spun out of control here in the United States. The launch of testing was botched because there was hardly any federal direction, and Trump consistently pushed for a reopening of the country when it was clear that cases were still rising in some states, prompting a second wave of new cases and deaths. Trump claimed in the debate that his statement about COVID-19 being over by Easter was “sarcasm,” but it really had not seemed like it at the time. If the vaccine rollout that is supposedly going to take place in November is delayed or mishandled as well, will he say that the statements he is making now were “sarcasm” too? And now that he has contracted the virus, will his dismissive attitude towards COVID-19 change?

Furthermore, it was clear in the debate that Trump wanted—and had pledged—to repeal Obamacare, a healthcare system that has given millions of Americans access to more affordable healthcare. Meanwhile, Biden wanted to keep it and even expand upon it. In addition, Trump accused Biden of “going to socialist medicine,” to which Biden clarified that he would not take away the option of private healthcare. Personally, I wholeheartedly support Biden’s initiative. Trump might never had had this problem—being a millionaire and all—but private insurance premiums for me a few years ago were $150 a month. And insurance premiums from Heath Connector, Massachusetts’ affordable healthcare marketplace, were all at least $200 per month for my mother. She had to choose between insurance for me and insurance for her. She chose me.

In my opinion, Trump acted very immaturely during the debate, constantly interrupting Biden and ignoring the efforts of the moderator to keep the discussion civil. Biden behaved better, but not by much. Several times in the debate, he lost his cool and his moral high ground, stooping down to call Trump “a clown” and “the worst president America has ever had.” I believe that character is very relevant to leadership, as a good president should be calm and composed even in the face of adversity. Trump’s childishness is only further proof that he is unfit for the presidency. But Biden losing his temper—as entertaining as it was—gives me a bit of doubt as to how he will react in precarious situation during his possible presidency.

Honestly, I do not think this first debate will affect the election overly much. It did not at all help undecided voters in choosing the candidate they want to vote for, and supporters of either candidate will most likely not change their minds at this point. Still, it is a bit concerning that Trump asked his followers to “watch very carefully” at the election; all this does is to further cement in their minds that this election will be rigged or unfair in some way. All in all, I agree with Biden’s words to the American people: “Show up and vote.” The future of the nation might just depend on it.

Originally posted by sleepypanda on October 02, 2020 04:11

This was the first time I watched a presidential debate in full, and I almost forgot it was such several times throughout the debate. It was baffling how many interruptions and personal attacks took place during the hour and a half I watched. I volunteered to do some tutoring for some 3rd and 4th graders this year, via zoom, and the presidential debate was as chaotic and messy as those zoom calls, if not worse. It’s crazy how a former vice president called the current president a clown and told him to “shut up”, yet that was just a small part of the mess. Trump’s refusal to denounce white supremacists was also quite the memorable part.

I completely agree! I was so excited for the debate, since it was the first one ever that I was going to watch, but that excitement quickly turned to exponentially-increasing incredulity as time went on. I actually remember thinking at one point that any two people in our class could have had a better and more informative debate than whatever happened on Wednesday. And shooting insults like “clown” and “racist” would have probably made the headlines in any other debate, but Biden doing so honestly provided a bit of much-needed levity. Trump’s comments on Beau Biden, though, was an unimaginatively low blow.

Originally posted by SwedishFish on October 02, 2020 00:35

Another example is when Joe Biden brought up Donald Trump's tax records from 2016-2017, which has been proven to have truth in it, was of course denied by President Trump. The Democratic Party has been pushing Trump to publish his records and he refuses...what is there to hide? Therefore when he says that Joe is lying, this is a form of gaslighting and reoccured throughout the debate.

This, exactly! If Trump really had paid millions of dollars in his tax returns (like he was supposed to), he should have no reason to feel defensive and cagey about releasing them for public view. And honestly, if Trump had released them when the Democratic party first asked him to—years ago—the reaction to them would probably not have been very major, or at least would have died down after a short while, given the short attention spans of the American media. But by refusing to release them voluntarily, Trump looked like he has something to hide, and so the anticipation just ramped up and up until details about them were released by the New York Times a few days ago. Now, it is election season, and Democrats will definitely not stop talking about them, unless Trump can somehow produce a satisfactory excuse from somewhere.