Originally posted by
error404 on September 16, 2017 21:26
Originally posted by
CoryInTheHouse on September 16, 2017 16:40
Originally posted by
Hermione on September 16, 2017 13:35
Originally posted by
error404 on September 14, 2017 22:32
Originally posted by
Mister on September 14, 2017 22:21
I believe in the first amendment right as much as the next person. I believe that everyone should be able to voice their opinions if they would like to be heard. However, I don't believe that if you are entitled to respect or credibility if your opinions are either hurtful or damaging to others. The fundamental flaw with the neo-nazi and KKK rhetoric is that even though they pledge their first amendment rights, under the first amendment: Individuals are entitled to rights involving freedom of religion. As far as I'm concerned, their rhetoric pledges to hurt others in an attempt to deprive them of their rights as human beings, and that is unacceptable.
But if we deprive one citizen of their rights, what's to stop the government from depriving everyone of their rights? We can't choose and pick who to give Constitutional rights to or else the line between freedom and oppression will slowly erode.
However, if we allow them to continue to terrorize the lives of others and say publicly that people are going to have to die to meet their agenda then whose rights are we really protecting. Mister has a point do we continue to let people who have a clear intent to hurt others get away with saying and acting on hate? Maybe the government shouldn't deprive people of those rights and instead the people of a certain town or city in which these protests are happening should decide if they want them to happen. Obviously, there is not a definite answer but we cannot allow people to go out on the streets and say things like "jews will not replace us" or other Nazi or terriost affiliated slogans. Because if we do we are showing that America is still a country full of people who do learn from history but rather want to continue the pattern of discrimination and hate towards others. Instead of moving forward and progressing we are being held back by people who are afraid of the future and where it will leave them. Ever heard of this statement (I do not intend to write this with the intent of insulting anyone): Why would White people be afraid to become minorities if they did not already see how minorities are being treated in this country? Thus I believe that the first amendment right is one of the most important. But at what point does granting that right to certain individuals hinder the rights of others?
I think that free speech, violence, and protesting have to be looked at separately when it comes to events like Charlottesville. I agree with you on the point that the United States cannot allow people to terrorize the lives of citizens. However, I believe that terrorism can only extend to acts of violence. So yes the murder and all other violence in Charlottesville was terrorism and illegal, but the fact that there were racists there advocating for white supremacy, is a separate issue. Our freedom of speech must extend to everyone, no matter how disgusting their beliefs are. Once you start silencing a group of people, the line is suddenly blurred as to what is okay and what is not. This creates a precedent for other free speech rights being taken away from other groups. By allowing all speech, the line becomes very clear. I agree that violence of any kind must be illegal and condemned, but that is a separate issue to free speech. By allowing free speech, I disagree that we are "showing that America is still a country full of people who do learn from history but rather want to continue the pattern of discrimination and hate towards others". In fact, I feel as if we are doing the opposite. Look at the free speech rally in Boston last month. While there were 50 or so (I can't remember the specifics) free speech protestors, some (not all) of them being white supremacists, there were tens of thousands of counter-protesters there as well proving to the city and the world that Boston will not tolerate hate and that we are a progressive and love filled city. By silencing the opposition, you are helping prove their point, but by letting them speak and then speaking back with hundreds of thousands times more force, you can show that they are just wrong.
Thank you CoryInTheHouse, that was extremely well said. The thing about our Constitutional rights is that either everyone has them, or no one does at all. If we only allow a certain group of people to protest and not others, that’s not just immoral but what’s to stop the government from taking away more of our rights? Despite whether we agree with an organization’s goals or not, we need to have a fair policy so that everyone’s voices will be protected.
Also, the Alt-Right’s goals are controversial because of their advocacy for white supremacy. However, anyone who believes that their culture is the best is considered supremacy. Not only is there white supremacy, but there’s also black supremacy, latino supremacy etc. For example, Malcolm X was part of the Nation of Islam. The Nation promoted black supremacy and advocated for the separation of black and white Americans. It even rejected the civil rights movement because of its emphasis on integration. Not to mention, Malcom X advocated for equality and if it could be obtained through peaceful means then great. If not, then he advocated by any means including violence as seen in his speech in 1964 called The ballot or the bullet. Whenever people of color are celebrating their culture, it’s seen as pride, however when white people do the same thing, they’re labeled as racists and bigots. It’s a double standard when people say that Alt-Right shouldn’t be allowed to protest. Either disregard pride in race as a whole, or let everyone celebrate it under the same conditions.
I apologize ahead of time for my bluntness. I respectfully do not think that the comparison you are making is justified. These white supremacists and neo nazis are NOT celebrating their culture. I have never seen a white person celebrate their culture by yelling out statements affiliated with the Nazis and other terrorist groups (including the KKK). These people are telling other people of this country that they do not belong here and if needed these supremacists will cleanse America from them. You CANNOT disregard race when these people say that they want one ethno state.
Regarding your comparison of this white supremacist/Neo Nazi/KKK group and the Nation of Islam, these are two very different situations. The Nation of Islam was advocating for two separate states not only because of Black Supremacy but because they believed and believe now, this which is from their website "Since we cannot get along with them in peace and equality, after giving them 400 years of our sweat and blood and receiving in return some of the worst treatment human beings have ever experienced, we believe our contributions to this land and the suffering forced upon us by white America, justifies our demand for complete separation in a state or territory of our own." I do not support nor agree with their beliefs but their actions are caused by centuries of slavery. They simply do not believe that their former slave owners or their offsprings will ever see them as equals or treat them as such.
Their beliefs are driven by years of discrimination and racism and unlike the beliefs of the White Supremacists. They do not believe in cleansing this country so that it will only include Black people. On their website they also state that " As long as we are not allowed to establish a state or territory of our own, we demand not only equal justice under the laws of the United States, but equal employment opportunities–NOW!" This group is able to see a future in America as long as they do not have to continue to face racism. Again, I do not support their beliefs nor claim that every single one of them is justified but regarding your statement this is what they say about the separate states on their website. This the complete opposite of the White Supremacists that you claim were celebrating their culture. On the American Nazi Party website it clearly states this " "HOW" do you think a White MINORITY will be TREATED - once it's an established fact? Do you think that life for your children, and their children will be "business as usual"? " These people are terrified of becoming the minority in the country as is predicted by around 2040 because they see how they treat minorities so they do not want to be on the receiving end of their own treatment. They claim to only want to protect the future of their children because they believe being minority is the worst thing possible.
So NO they are not celebrating their so called culture. These supremacists are protesting the fact that soon they will no longer be the majority race. Thus, NO there is no double standard because these situations are so different. Neither of them are celebrating their culture but advocating for what they believe is right. However the Nation of Islam is not threatening the lives of others because they fear becoming the minority. Whilst, these supremacists are doing just that and they do not care who they have to hurt in order to get to their agenda.
So again I respectfully say that this was a horrible comparison you can't compare people who are fighting for their own human rights with those of people who want to take human rights away from others out of fear of people treating them as they treat others. Also POC, specifically Black people, celebrating their culture is pride because their culture and identity was taken away from them for centuries.
AGAIN YOU CAN NOT DISREGARD RACE when these supremacists were not celebrating their culture but clearly advocating for the end of other cultures. So no they cannot as you claim "celebrate" it under the same conditions. On a moral ground a comparison of this people with any other group advocating for their civil or human rights is wrong and unjustified. Because these people aren't protesting because they are being deprived of rights but because they don't want others to ever have the rights they have.